New user thoughts on Torque 3D...
by Adam Zeliasz · in Torque 3D Beginner · 03/19/2010 (7:23 am) · 14 replies
I wanted to create this thread to see how newer users view Torque 3D, and get some other thoughts/considerations that I might have missed. Maybe this will help Garage Games get a better understanding on what should take precedence, and what potential customers would like to see.
First let me start off by saying that I'm an artist rather then a programmer. If I had a strong coding background, maybe some of my thoughts might be different. But from my perspective here is where I'm at:
Documentation
First and foremost is the documentation. From posting here for a while I get the feeling that only one person is writing/updating the docs. I feel that documentation and tutorials are key in getting users, especially new ones, up to speed working with the engine. I also haven't found one tutorial that walks me through anything.
Forum
I'm not sure how much better the private forums are, but this public one doesn't seem to have a large user base. Since the documentation is lacking, that should be the next solution to getting answers or ideas on how to solve something. I personally feel that keeping all the forums public will benefit potential customers greatly, and help build a stronger community of users where we all can help each other out.
Physics
I can't even create simple rigid bodies without a 3rd part add-on or using 3DS Max. I thought physX is tightly integrated, but I haven't seen any menu's that allow me to work with the physics engine.
Post FX
I have seen numerous demonstrations videos on a variety of post FX options, but I have only seen a couple of "check boxes" to turn them on or off. There are no menus that allow you to tweak setting, or enable additional FX such as motion blur or depth of field. Maybe all of this needs to be scripted, if that's the case then I have no idea on where to begin or how to activate them. And the Wetness and Precipitation video demonstration is interesting to watch, but from my understanding none of that will be available unless you code it yourself.
Shaders
As far as I know there is only one provided, and if you want additional features you'll have to by a 3rd party shaders, or write them yourself.
---
My overall opinion is that Torque 3D looks good on paper, and does have some great features such as the River and Road editor, but overall it's difficult to use especially if you're not a programmer or strong with scripting. I've used the Unity engine in the past and I was hoping to jump-ship due to Torque's visual capabilities and some nice World Editor features; but with weak documentation, tutorials and forum I'm not sold on making a purchase and switching over yet.
Does anyone else like to share their thoughts?
First let me start off by saying that I'm an artist rather then a programmer. If I had a strong coding background, maybe some of my thoughts might be different. But from my perspective here is where I'm at:
Documentation
First and foremost is the documentation. From posting here for a while I get the feeling that only one person is writing/updating the docs. I feel that documentation and tutorials are key in getting users, especially new ones, up to speed working with the engine. I also haven't found one tutorial that walks me through anything.
Forum
I'm not sure how much better the private forums are, but this public one doesn't seem to have a large user base. Since the documentation is lacking, that should be the next solution to getting answers or ideas on how to solve something. I personally feel that keeping all the forums public will benefit potential customers greatly, and help build a stronger community of users where we all can help each other out.
Physics
I can't even create simple rigid bodies without a 3rd part add-on or using 3DS Max. I thought physX is tightly integrated, but I haven't seen any menu's that allow me to work with the physics engine.
Post FX
I have seen numerous demonstrations videos on a variety of post FX options, but I have only seen a couple of "check boxes" to turn them on or off. There are no menus that allow you to tweak setting, or enable additional FX such as motion blur or depth of field. Maybe all of this needs to be scripted, if that's the case then I have no idea on where to begin or how to activate them. And the Wetness and Precipitation video demonstration is interesting to watch, but from my understanding none of that will be available unless you code it yourself.
Shaders
As far as I know there is only one provided, and if you want additional features you'll have to by a 3rd party shaders, or write them yourself.
---
My overall opinion is that Torque 3D looks good on paper, and does have some great features such as the River and Road editor, but overall it's difficult to use especially if you're not a programmer or strong with scripting. I've used the Unity engine in the past and I was hoping to jump-ship due to Torque's visual capabilities and some nice World Editor features; but with weak documentation, tutorials and forum I'm not sold on making a purchase and switching over yet.
Does anyone else like to share their thoughts?
About the author
My name is Adam Zeliasz. I'm a designer testing out Torque 3D for an independent title. I specialize in modeling and animation, and well as web and print design.
#2
This is a problem, which is why 1.1 is going out with a full PostFX menu. This will allow you to toggle and modify the levels of all fullscreen effects.
Regarding the forums, I think we will be sticking with separate private and public. This is mainly due to the Alpha/Beta testing, and adding value to owning a license. Now, if you have some suggestions on improving the public forum we are all ears. Is it just the lack of people, or can we do more to improve it?
03/19/2010 (7:46 am)
Quote:There are no menus that allow you to tweak setting, or enable additional FX such as motion blur or depth of field. Maybe all of this needs to be scripted, if that's the case then I have no idea on where to begin or how to activate them.
This is a problem, which is why 1.1 is going out with a full PostFX menu. This will allow you to toggle and modify the levels of all fullscreen effects.
Regarding the forums, I think we will be sticking with separate private and public. This is mainly due to the Alpha/Beta testing, and adding value to owning a license. Now, if you have some suggestions on improving the public forum we are all ears. Is it just the lack of people, or can we do more to improve it?
#3
If that argument still isn't enough, maybe you can have the moderators in the Private forums allow certain threads to be viewed publicly too? That way "general" threads can be shared by all. Or have only Beta/Alpha access private.
If the bottom-line comes down to software piracy, you'll never be able to work around that. The question is will preventing illegal users from viewing the forums outweigh the frustration with demo users from not getting there questions thoroughly answered?
Anyways it's good to hear that GG is working on the Post FX system and getting another technical writer. In all honestly you should hire someone to write a good tutorial which teaches someone all the major features of Torque 3D, giving the user a general overview of how things work in T3D. Unity has a great example of that...
If somehow I can read what was said at the GDC, that would be awesome.
03/19/2010 (8:11 am)
@Michael - I can't view any of the links you sent since those threads are located in the private forums. Another reason why I feel that the Public Discussion and Private forums should be merged. I understand your thoughts on the value of owning a license; but now you have demo users who would like questions answered, or do a search on something that might have been asked already and they can't. So they would have to wait for the small user base who's actively involved in this Public Discussion to reply. Like this thread for example; if I had access to the Private forums I wouldn't even have to post this thread since this has been address in the Private forum, nor have you take time out of your busy day to reply instead of working on the documentation! hahaIf that argument still isn't enough, maybe you can have the moderators in the Private forums allow certain threads to be viewed publicly too? That way "general" threads can be shared by all. Or have only Beta/Alpha access private.
If the bottom-line comes down to software piracy, you'll never be able to work around that. The question is will preventing illegal users from viewing the forums outweigh the frustration with demo users from not getting there questions thoroughly answered?
Anyways it's good to hear that GG is working on the Post FX system and getting another technical writer. In all honestly you should hire someone to write a good tutorial which teaches someone all the major features of Torque 3D, giving the user a general overview of how things work in T3D. Unity has a great example of that...
If somehow I can read what was said at the GDC, that would be awesome.
#5
Jon D Wrote:
My Update:
03/19/2010 (8:45 am)
@Adam - Gah! Sorry about that. I was writing after I just woke up and did not realize I was proving your point by posting private threads.Jon D Wrote:
Quote:Just an update for those who missed the GDC interview with Eric and Michael.
Summary - The next release of the engine does not go out without scripting and API documentation.
Full interview
:)
My Update:
Quote: 03/16/2010 (1:14 pm)
Hey everyone. Here is what has happened so far:
1. Had another meeting with Eric regarding logistics. We decided this was going to be a team effort, which means more than just myself documenting the code. Decision made: anyone not currently locked up will work with me for a while to fill out ConsoleFunctions, ConsoleMethods, and member fields.
2. Tom, Rene, and myself went through a round of debate and analysis of Doxygen vs NaturalDocs. NaturalDocs is winning, but we have a few hours to make the final decision. Our script and engine reference will be generated via NaturalDocs if it's clear. I tested it on a small scale to review formatting options, presentation, and what content is generated.
You can view that here: Test Docs. Specifically, have a look at VectorAdd which is currently the most complete script function reference. The format, presentation, and scheme is not finalized. There are also a couple of spelling errors that will be corrected at the end.
3. Currently, when you call dumpConsoleFunctions() by itself all C++ and script global functions will be spit out to the console. Any usage strings mostly use doxygen tags. This is not useful, readable, or desired. I am rewriting our ConsoleDoc system to handle NaturalDocs, making regeneration of script and engine reference a snap. The same practice will be applied to other dumpXXXX functions. Go go C++ skills.
4. Developers are in the process of volunteering for modules to comment. Whatever is left will be assigned by me to whomever has the lightest load.
Work on this new task started about 24 hours ago.
#6
03/19/2010 (8:48 am)
Thanks Ken and Michael 
#7
03/22/2010 (2:11 pm)
Uck, more bad documentation.. Sadness
#8
Small update: I've been working on the organization of the CHM, since it has become a full on TorqueScript manual. We want to make sure it's easy for someone to just jump straight to what they want to read about:
03/23/2010 (12:19 pm)
@Adam - Thought I'd keep you in the loop. Here are some more posts from that private thread:Small update: I've been working on the organization of the CHM, since it has become a full on TorqueScript manual. We want to make sure it's easy for someone to just jump straight to what they want to read about:
Quote:Glen asked: When the next beta releases can us non-pro people have the sample docs...Absolutely. This is going out to the public before another Beta, no waiting for an engine release.
#9
03/23/2010 (12:30 pm)
Thanks Michael, I appreciate you letting me know. 
#10
It seems to me that the majority of Unity users are designer-minded people. Sure there are fine "hard-core" programmers using it, but it seems like the majority are people who want the intricacies of game development abstracted by way of Unity's "Inspector" window. If would be perfect if T3D had its own "Lerpz" tutorial for the binary release. I'd bet that that coupled with the greater quality and power of the engine itself would greatly appeal their user base as well as a host of potential GarageGames customers.
03/24/2010 (1:43 pm)
I must say, I like how the new docs are shaping up. They look very php.net-esque. I do agree with Adam that it would be great if there were a "Getting Started" type tutorial. Unity has the Lerpz tutorial which walks the new user through the process of adding and scripting actors, power-ups, and props (jump pads, etc.) to a pre-built map in about 120 pages.It seems to me that the majority of Unity users are designer-minded people. Sure there are fine "hard-core" programmers using it, but it seems like the majority are people who want the intricacies of game development abstracted by way of Unity's "Inspector" window. If would be perfect if T3D had its own "Lerpz" tutorial for the binary release. I'd bet that that coupled with the greater quality and power of the engine itself would greatly appeal their user base as well as a host of potential GarageGames customers.
#11
Michael - the new docs sound fantastic! Good job :).
03/24/2010 (3:24 pm)
Updated GettingStarted.pdf anyone? That thing was invaluable when I was just starting out - it was an all-in-one reference to simple GUI, World Editor and TS functionality.Michael - the new docs sound fantastic! Good job :).
#12
03/24/2010 (5:08 pm)
But was it a step by step walk-through? I don't think I've even seen that pdf. :p
#13
The current docs cover all that and instead of having a tutorial making a game out of picking up an item there is something more substantial with the RTS Prototype tutorial.
03/25/2010 (6:25 am)
It covered software setup, an overview of the editors, and then had a short tutorial game based around picking up an Item created from our logo.The current docs cover all that and instead of having a tutorial making a game out of picking up an item there is something more substantial with the RTS Prototype tutorial.
#14
03/25/2010 (10:56 am)
Ah, I never even looked at the lower half of the docs page. Thanks, that's a really good looking tutorial. 
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
During GDC, we announced our plans for the documentation. The first action was posted here.
My thoughts on documentation? The comments made were nearly spot on. I love our engine tech and it's capabilities, but I do not accept our current level of documentation. Eric and the team is fully behind the doc effort. We are also going to post a job advertisement, and hire on a second technical writer to continue to help me get new docs out.