Looking for Programming Price Quotes for Space RPG/Adventure
by Marty O'Hale · in Jobs · 02/28/2010 (12:33 am) · 7 replies
I'm considering funding a small, independent development team to make a space opera adventure / RPG that would be somewhat similar in structure to Weird Worlds and Strange Adventures in Infinite Space: http://www.digital-eel.com/weird/.
The team would likely consist of a writer (who worked on such games as Dragon Age, Kohan II, and Heroes of Newerth), an illustrator (still lining up, but it would be a talented freelancer with professional credentials), a coder (hence this thread), and a sound technician / composer (although I would conceivably just license music as an alternative).
I had a couple questions I was hoping people could answer:
(1) Is TGB a suitable engine for developing such a game? It seems more than flexible enough, but I figured I would ask. The alternatives, I suppose, are to use Flash (which is helpful for widespread exposure of a free demo, but not a very good medium overall) or a proprietary engine (which strikes me as much more expensive to develop but likely more flexible).
(2) Can someone ballpark what it would cost me to hire a competent programmer to code such a game? I imagine it would be a fairly significant project. I'm am trying to budget out whether it's something I can afford do; but I am adamant that I will not use "free" labor or pay with a "percentage of future profits" -- two techniques that I associate inescapably with failed Internet collaborations. I realize it's very hard to estimate this kind of thing, but I need to know whether we're talking $5k, $10k, $50k, or $100k. (Obviously as the price gets higher, my ability to fun and develop the game diminishes.)
(3) Is this the right place to be asking?
Finally, if this is something that people would be interested in working on, I'd never turn away interest, but I'm not at the recruiting stage yet -- I'm not going to recruit till I can hire, and I can't hire till I know I'm going forward with the game, which requires a viable budget.
The team would likely consist of a writer (who worked on such games as Dragon Age, Kohan II, and Heroes of Newerth), an illustrator (still lining up, but it would be a talented freelancer with professional credentials), a coder (hence this thread), and a sound technician / composer (although I would conceivably just license music as an alternative).
I had a couple questions I was hoping people could answer:
(1) Is TGB a suitable engine for developing such a game? It seems more than flexible enough, but I figured I would ask. The alternatives, I suppose, are to use Flash (which is helpful for widespread exposure of a free demo, but not a very good medium overall) or a proprietary engine (which strikes me as much more expensive to develop but likely more flexible).
(2) Can someone ballpark what it would cost me to hire a competent programmer to code such a game? I imagine it would be a fairly significant project. I'm am trying to budget out whether it's something I can afford do; but I am adamant that I will not use "free" labor or pay with a "percentage of future profits" -- two techniques that I associate inescapably with failed Internet collaborations. I realize it's very hard to estimate this kind of thing, but I need to know whether we're talking $5k, $10k, $50k, or $100k. (Obviously as the price gets higher, my ability to fun and develop the game diminishes.)
(3) Is this the right place to be asking?
Finally, if this is something that people would be interested in working on, I'd never turn away interest, but I'm not at the recruiting stage yet -- I'm not going to recruit till I can hire, and I can't hire till I know I'm going forward with the game, which requires a viable budget.
#2
Art and writing are covered, as is design, though of course input in those categories would always be welcome.
Any chance you can ballpark what "a lot" is, since getting even a vague number is the point of the post in the first place? :)
02/28/2010 (11:05 am)
There is a detailed, 220-page design document (although half is devoted to narrative content, so really only 100 pages or so is "design" with the rest being a setting bible). For obvious reasons, I haven't posted it in the thread.Art and writing are covered, as is design, though of course input in those categories would always be welcome.
Any chance you can ballpark what "a lot" is, since getting even a vague number is the point of the post in the first place? :)
#3
Not really. You'll get a ballpark from a contractor who reviews your document, but just saying that you want it to be like some other games gives only a very small idea as to how your game will turn out without actually looking at exactly what you want done.
I'm not asking you to post the design doc, I'm just stating how difficult it is to ask someone to ballpark a project estimate with such little information. What I would do myself (and this may not be the best way, depending on your priorities) is find a highly qualified contractor or three and then have them do estimates and bids based on the information rather and then choose who you think will provide the best work at the lowest price. Just my two cents on that matter.
02/28/2010 (6:37 pm)
Quote:Any chance you can ballpark what "a lot" is, since getting even a vague number is the point of the post in the first place?
Not really. You'll get a ballpark from a contractor who reviews your document, but just saying that you want it to be like some other games gives only a very small idea as to how your game will turn out without actually looking at exactly what you want done.
I'm not asking you to post the design doc, I'm just stating how difficult it is to ask someone to ballpark a project estimate with such little information. What I would do myself (and this may not be the best way, depending on your priorities) is find a highly qualified contractor or three and then have them do estimates and bids based on the information rather and then choose who you think will provide the best work at the lowest price. Just my two cents on that matter.
#4
I'm not looking for a "bid" to which I would hold a potential contractor, but rather for assistance that would help me figure out a budget for my game, and whether I have the means to self-fund. So when you say "a lot," it sounds like you do have some idea in your head as to what the cost is, and like it's probably out of the self-funding range.
In every other context I've ever dealt with contractors (from lawyers writing briefs to general contractors building garages to surgeons removing appendixes), you can get an order-of-magnitude estimate (i.e., four figures, five figures, six figures, etc.) with even the most general of descriptions. Having spent a fair amount of my childhood doing programing, I know that it is a complicated and unpredictable process, but I would still think that it would be possible to do that kind of estimate here.
If not, c'est la vie!
02/28/2010 (7:03 pm)
I think the problem that I must not have made clear is that the budget I can bring to bear is fairly small. If going to a "highly qualified contractor" is going to run a minimum of, say, $50k, then it's simply not worth my time to research contractors, sign them up to NDAs, send them the design doc, and have them give me an estimate. I would either need to abandon the project or pursue an alternative route -- hiring a less-established coder whose job prospects are sufficiently limited that a paying, potentially high exposure job would be appeal; pitching the project to clients I've worked with and just have them develop it; etc.I'm not looking for a "bid" to which I would hold a potential contractor, but rather for assistance that would help me figure out a budget for my game, and whether I have the means to self-fund. So when you say "a lot," it sounds like you do have some idea in your head as to what the cost is, and like it's probably out of the self-funding range.
In every other context I've ever dealt with contractors (from lawyers writing briefs to general contractors building garages to surgeons removing appendixes), you can get an order-of-magnitude estimate (i.e., four figures, five figures, six figures, etc.) with even the most general of descriptions. Having spent a fair amount of my childhood doing programing, I know that it is a complicated and unpredictable process, but I would still think that it would be possible to do that kind of estimate here.
If not, c'est la vie!
#5
Actually, I didn't have a good ballpark idea, so if I said anything misleading there, I apologize. I meant that, in general, the man hours of developing a game can become "a lot". What "a lot" is depends greatly on the project. I did a really simple tile-matching game in about 4-5 "man-days", and I have an MMO project that I've put several years into, and other projects as a contractor that take me a week or more to do. Just depends on the project and what unknowns you'll run into.
That's because there's only a relatively few ways to write a brief, build a garage, or take out an appendix (the rusty-spoon route will likely run you three figures ;-) ). I'll go out on a limb and say, for your order-of-magnitude estimate that it would be in the range of five figures. That's off the top of my head, considering my own hourly rate and skillset with Torque and the descriptions of the game features that you referenced that I saw. I hope that helps narrow things down for you a bit better.
02/28/2010 (8:31 pm)
Quote:So when you say "a lot," it sounds like you do have some idea in your head as to what the cost is, and like it's probably out of the self-funding range.
Actually, I didn't have a good ballpark idea, so if I said anything misleading there, I apologize. I meant that, in general, the man hours of developing a game can become "a lot". What "a lot" is depends greatly on the project. I did a really simple tile-matching game in about 4-5 "man-days", and I have an MMO project that I've put several years into, and other projects as a contractor that take me a week or more to do. Just depends on the project and what unknowns you'll run into.
Quote:In every other context I've ever dealt with contractors (from lawyers writing briefs to general contractors building garages to surgeons removing appendixes), you can get an order-of-magnitude estimate (i.e., four figures, five figures, six figures, etc.) with even the most general of descriptions.
That's because there's only a relatively few ways to write a brief, build a garage, or take out an appendix (the rusty-spoon route will likely run you three figures ;-) ). I'll go out on a limb and say, for your order-of-magnitude estimate that it would be in the range of five figures. That's off the top of my head, considering my own hourly rate and skillset with Torque and the descriptions of the game features that you referenced that I saw. I hope that helps narrow things down for you a bit better.
#6
That's very helpful, actually.
02/28/2010 (10:06 pm)
Well, now I've got you locked in for five figures! :)That's very helpful, actually.
#7
Edit: BTW, I also have artists and writers at my disposal (concept, modeling, texture, and animation, as well as pixel art).
03/01/2010 (5:43 am)
Email me at Ted@DigitalFlux.com when you're ready to discuss specifics, or we can meet in person if you're going to be in the SF area during GDC (I'm also scheduling meetings for outside the convention for those not going but in the area).Edit: BTW, I also have artists and writers at my disposal (concept, modeling, texture, and animation, as well as pixel art).
Torque 3D Owner Ted Southard
2) Not really, sorry. The problem is that any two programmers will take differing amounts of time to code up a game, especially if they need to tackle a problem for which there is not a ready answer (such as procedural generation problems, which are almost always custom because of their nature). Expect to pay "a lot"(TM), since you're going to have a coder make a whole game for you. Also, it helps greatly for estimates if you have a clear and detailed design document (referencing the games above is fine for this, but it doesn't really tell a potential contractor exactly what features to plan on executing, and if you allow a contractor to assume and then change his course later- that's money you'll lose).
3) Probably as good a place as any.
Bonus Point: If you decide to go with Torque as a solution and need a contract game designer/coder, I will throw my hat into that ring. I have experience with procedural content, and I have a team that I can bring to the task of artwork (and writing if needed) as well.