Game Development Community

MMPO RPG/Adventure [ Don't shake your head just yet! ]

by Ted Kardos · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 05/26/2003 (7:46 am) · 17 replies

First off, let me introduce myself(and apologize for the length of this). My name is Ted, and I live about an hour out of Boston. I am well rounded in the computer field, whether its programming, design or networking- windows or linux- 3dsmax or VC++.NET- I tend to dabble in everything. Whats that mean to me? Just that I can be realistic about what (I) can or can't be done. I have a little money to toss around to try to put together a videogame(for equipment, licenses, etc).

Video games have become much like a reinvention of the novel. The writer(s) can immerse a person in their world, and leave it to them to have fun with it. Multiplayer has only enhanced it with realism and surprise. D&D and Vampire/WW are very early and primitive examples of this.

I have been a patron and addict of massively multiplayer games for as long as I remember owning a computer and the internet. I played MUDs far into the late hours of the night, day after day- until out came Sierra's The Realm, which completely redefined gaming for myself. All a sudden other games did not seem to measure up like they did before. Later I got into the Everquest beta, a game which I didn't leave until about a half year ago. In the meantime I also beta'd and played DAoC, and tried out Shadowbane.

Needless to say, I'm a MMPOG addict. In all games alike though, what kept me coming back again and again is PvP. I can't grasp how people could of played without it.

Keeping in mind my love for MMO-PvP, you're probably wondering why I'm writing this and not playing Shadowbane or Planetside. You're going to be surprised to as what my favorite MMPOG is/was. Not Shadowbane, not Ultima, not DAoC, but Everquest. Yes, Everquest. Im sure plenty didnt even realize Everquest had PvP. There were a small handful, of about a quarter dozen PvP servers in EQ. I played on Vallon-Zek(PvP-Teams) and Sullon-Zek(Diety Alliance).

Now now, what in the hell am I thinking? See, DAoC and SB and whatever are all designed with PvP in mind, but the PvP those games offer is very teamwork and largescale combat based. Good luck trying to go PvPing with just you and your buddy down the street, or without scoping out a kill for over a half hour solo. Especially if it would be an even REMOTELY fair fight, reguardless of just how good you are..

It shouldnt be like that. You shouldn't need a full support group to go out and participate in some clean, fun PvP. You shouldn't need to chase a herd around for hours to pick a few kills off: this is a game.

I dont imagine anyone else gets my drift without also of having experienced EQ PvP. Us PvPers("Reds"), we learned the ins and out of the software. I played a rogue, whom until recently honestly just plain got shafted throughout EQ's lifetime. We developed strategies, and learned what was most effective day by day. An awesome example is what we Reds called 'Jousting.' Instead of sitting in front of our opponent(or in a close radius) and going at them with melee combat, and occasionally trying to duck behind them for a backstab, we would take out our highest damage weapons(reguardless of the speed), hit, run away until our weapons were refreshed, come back in and hit again, and so on and so on until they died. Add in some hiding and bandaging to make up for hitpoint differences. That way we were giving our maximum damage, and not sacrificing (nearly as many) hit points in the meanwhile. Heck, some of us rogues got so good we could BACKstab you from what seemed to be the FRONT. I can't tell you how many people claimed we were hackers.

So, in essence what I'm trying to say is what MMPORPGs lack now in PvP is player-skill. Does it create an imbalancing scenario among players though when you have player-skill as a factor?? Not more than someone getting good at Quake. Actually a whole lot less, because Ill tell you now, the people who got insanely good at EQ PvP definately werent the people going out smashing Mobiles for awesome armor constantly. We were piss-poor(pardon). It makes it so those whom are uber-geared level fiends are not quite so tough, because they never took the time go have fun and play around with other players, and learn how to battle. I could rant and rant about how big of a role 'player-skill' should be and such, but I'd only make myself out to be a babbling fool. Besides, I think I got a rough represenation of what I was thinking across. Just think, standard RPG combat meets a bit of (but not totally) twitch combat.

Heres my idea. A fantasy MMO Adventure/RPG based around a leveless(so, skill-based) sub/multi-classing system centered on PvP and aquiring items to make you more powerful. The skill system will be there, but not of VERY significant importance. It will just back up your character development(the skill system has nothing to do with the tradeskill system, mind you, that will be rich and profitable). There will be a hint of capture the flag. Lore wise you'll see alot of cool stuff that hasnt been done yet(or not well, at least), ex.: alot of concepts from fairy tales ;). The mood will be alot like that of the "happy" fantasy mood of EQ/DAoC, verse the dark moods of UO and SB. Its more fun that way. But it'll have its own blend of cool, teehee.

Yes, there will be a PvE aspect to the game, but not nearly the pain in the butt that it is in games now. I hate the feeling like PvE is a unneccesary evil, and thats the feeling other mmpogs have given me to this point. PvE will stand as a way to make cash, quest, and aquire magical items. As far as I am concerned I dont care if players never hit a mobile in their whole time playing the game, hitting other players will provide the same benefits, minus the special loot(which you could trade for).

In order to make a game like this interesting, it will be story rich(manipulated behind the scenes by gamemasters), to remove mindless zombie killing syndrome.

I have also devised unique magic systems, combat systems and balancing systems. Im in the process of putting my sloppy notebook full into a clean design document.

Why the generic fantasy MMPOG? Well, this is not at all generic, I'll tell you that. As for the fantasy aspect, if I wanted to play a large scale shooter battle Id hop online with Tribes II or some of the awesome shooters there already are. The only other thing which i think really *perfectly* fits the MMPOG scene right now is Whitewolf's Pen and Pencil vampire games, but I cannot even come close to affording licensing like that. A game on reality and crime would come with too much shock value and controversy. So on, and so on.

I realize what it takes to put a MMPOG together, and especially what it takes to actually make it run after creation. So dont go trying to crush my ambition that way :)

I can go over the designs I have in detail later and privately. I am looking for people who would be interested in something like this. Anyone who wants to play contributing roles at all. Upon writing this I am pretty much alone in this project(and welcoming people with arms awide!). I would prefer people in the Boston area, but if you are comfortable working over the internet that is completely fine. We will be working in Torque. As for pay, there is none- if and until the game gets off the ground, then everything goes through in relative to the work you did/contributed. I have good feelings about it.

The development process would go sort of like this I was thinking:
A) Build the groundwork, make the engine enhancements, give ourselves a skeleton
B) Make a mini-game on top of that to accomidate ourselves with what we're doing[I have a cool as heck idea for an ancient ninja warfare mini-game]
C) .. The actual game, hehe.

I am really open to ideas, and if there is ANYTHING that ANYONE is curious about feel free to ask on this thread and I will answer with the very best of my abilities. PLEASE contact me if you are interested in working with me on this.


Please note negativity is not always constructive criticism though :)


-Ted.
AIM: tedkardosx
etrigan@softhome.net
PS: Sorry for the INSANE length of this.

#1
05/26/2003 (5:40 pm)
Why dose evryone want to make an MMO game of some type? Honestly its probubly the hardest road to go on, plus MMO games are popping up faster then "weeds gorwing after a desret storm". Plus, you WILL get sued. Why? Hackers. Ultima Online gose to court 12 times a year cause people got hacked. If you think you can handle it, then go ahead. But trust me, dont do it.
#2
05/26/2003 (6:11 pm)
"Why dose evryone want to make an MMO game of some type?"

.. Well, the first four paragraphs get my point across clearly I thought. Did you bother to read them? :)
#3
05/26/2003 (6:32 pm)
I mean, it sounds like a good idea in general (unless you get sued), but it's way too much work. Since you list your programming skill as "beginner", I suggest you make some easier games first.

Everyone here (at least everyone I know - including me) starts out trying to make a game that's way too hard, messes up, and then eventually starts doing the easy stuff (or just quits).

So do yourself a favor and start with something easier. Even making a non-MMO RPG is hard.

Of course, everyone gets that advice, and no one listens to it. But, as tradition dictates, I will give this advice to you.

Also, your post was REALLY long. It would have been better if that were 2 seperate threads. Long posts are alot longer to read.

- Steve Fletcher
#4
05/26/2003 (6:35 pm)
If you really want to make a MMORPG, I suggest making a regular RPG with everything your MMORPG will have except without networking first. You probably will NOT be able to just add networking and have it work. But you'll be able to reuse most of your work, and you'll have a working prototype to fall back on in case making it MMO doesn't work out.

- Steve Fletcher
#5
05/26/2003 (6:50 pm)
".. Well, the first four paragraphs get my point across clearly I thought. Did you bother to read them? :"

Yes, I did bother to read them.

EDIT: Also look at this article: www.gamespy.com/gdc2003/top10mmog/
#6
05/28/2003 (6:04 am)
Errr "MM" is good don't get me wrong but are you sure your at a skill level to produce such a game. Aim for the stars but to reach it you'll need a stairway, taking one step at a time.
#7
05/28/2003 (7:10 am)
Start to read the book by Thor Alexander - Massive Multiplayer Game Development. Its great.
#8
05/28/2003 (7:14 am)
Sounds great and it will be a lot of work. Good luck

About the "Why dose evryone want to make an MMO game of some type?" question I would say the same could be said for FPS shooters. It is something that people like to play so why not. It will be a long and hard road but if it sells then good job.
#9
05/28/2003 (7:49 am)
I know how you feel about the lack of player skill present in a lot of MMP type games. One game you may want to look at is Neocron. Its attempts to put an fps style fighting system into an MMP game, and for the most part pulls it off rather well. Obviously it still implements MMPRPG style skills etc so the chances of anyone beating a player significantly above their level is nigh on impossible but it does blur the edges between players of closer levels rather nicely.

I'm off to investigate this Hacking business. Not making an MMPOG for fear of being sued just sounds plain silly to me, I am sure there are numerous ways to protect yourself against that eventuality.
#10
05/28/2003 (10:33 am)
Ive read the book by Thor :)

Great read.

As for the workload, it'll be tons, but like I said I have a sort of introduction project to it that should help get a ton of work out of the way.


All feedback is appreciated.
#11
06/27/2003 (7:25 am)
As for the hacking, -MD5 encrypted database-. You won't lose any info that way. You'd be suprised at how easy MD5 is to use and how many RPG's DON'T DO IT. My god leaving things in clear text is like leaving a blank password to your database. FYI: Ragnarok Online keeps users passwords in clear text. How nice!
#12
05/13/2004 (4:34 pm)
Keep us posted.. it sounds quite interesting.
#13
05/14/2004 (8:27 pm)
(The inevitable "Kevin posting in reply to another MMO attempt" post!)

OK.

It sounds like you have a decent groundwork. Search this forum for "MMORPG" and you'll find a LOT of assorted advice floating out there. One of the best bits you'll get is for a book: from New Rider, and I'm totally blanking on the name right now. It's SPECIFICALLY about MMO design, development, and the business of making them work though. Well worth a read.

Get out there and start chatting on the forums that exist for this sort of thing. Vault has a board where people chat MMO design all the time. It's a very...theoretical...board, with a lot of bad ideas, but some gems as well.

Consider your engine. Torque is great - several folks have modded/are modding the engine to work for a persistant world. Just getting an integrated character dBase for an MMO set up for Torque is a formidable challenge though. And that leaves out entirely that Torque is eminently suitable for zoned play, but horribly unsuited for zoneless large worlds. Zones a la EQ being considered "bad", "passe", and undesirable for MMOs nowadays.

This is a huge, huge, huge project. You simply are not going to be able to get it done by yourself. You're talking about hundreds of hours of programming, thousands of hours of art, and hundreds more hours of public relations and business management. Outsource, if you can afford it, but be prepared to pay for it. I've estimated that a bare-bones game could probably be put up with one game shard (of 2k or so simultainious players, or maybe 6k total subs) for as little as $50k. A solid, competitive game, even if it's small-time and narrowly targeted at a very specific niche, will cost 2-4 times that. Bare minimum.

I cannot stress enough that you should probably make another game FIRST. Something else. ANYthing else! =) Get a feel for the work involved, plus it's a great way to get some initial revenue going. I'm actually doing this myself - we'll be testing various elements of gameplay for our Torque MMO with a forthcoming single-player/small multiplayer game, along the lines of Tank Wars in scope. It's a great way to develop systems you can reuse in your MMO, to get your name out there as a "real" developer, and to get some hands on experience with the engine.

Read everything you can on the subject.
Study the genre with care.
Learn good business and customer care skills - 99% of the work of an MMO comes AFTER release!
Be prepared for a very rough road.
#14
05/15/2004 (2:54 am)
Kevin:

This original poster guy posted like 1 year ago ;) I think he has gotten started by now. Your post is nice information though.
#15
05/15/2004 (3:05 am)
Whoa this was posted one year ago? Darn! I could have helped him..... Grrrrr!!!
Well Ted if you still need some help, contact me through A.I.M. ok?

AIM: ilneocow
#16
05/15/2004 (3:53 am)
Sheesh. =) Sorry 'bout that! Was tired + bored at work, and saw the post without checking the date. *blushes*
#17
06/18/2004 (10:40 am)
It's a Timeless topic, so I think it's ok to post on it even after a year.

The main fallback I see is the "no pay" thing. MMORPGS are a huge undertaking. How are you going to get people to put years into a game for no pay?


Jason said "FYI: Ragnarok Online keeps users passwords in clear text. How nice!"

So did Yahoo messenger until recently, but now only the passwords are encrypted, everything else is plain ol' text. The first time I used a packet sniffer on yahoo I couldnt believe my eyes. You would think something as important as the most widely used private messenger software in the world would be at least semi-secure.