Questions for T3D owners
by Foestar · in Torque 3D Beginner · 12/23/2009 (11:04 pm) · 11 replies
Okay, so I own TGE and TGEA. I am currently deep in a project that was originally started in TGE and later ported to TGEA only to have T3D come out. So I was hoping to get some feedback on T3D from it's users who have previously owned the now dead versions of Torque. (TGE and TGEA)
So to start things off it's about 705 dollars for an upgrade atm for me. Now I wont be getting it anytime soon anyways since I am in the middle of car shopping which comes first. But before I do decide on whether to purchase it I would like to get some info on it's current standing with users.
How is the performance in comparison to TGEA?
Is it that much of an upgrade that it would be worth buying to move my project over to?
Are the new features really all that great? And when I say features I mean the river tool as well as the road and forest creator.
Is the lighting and rendering improved enough that it would be better/faster/easier then simply creating what I need in TGEA?
I have used the demo for a half hour to an hour and so far from what I've seen is though it's nice, it's nothing so far that makes me want to shell out $705 atm for my current project. But then I haven't really been using it enough to fully get the idea. So I figured I would ask what other peoples thoughts were on this topic and these questions while I try it out a little more. Any other things you would like to point out on the better side and negative side feel free to list.
So to start things off it's about 705 dollars for an upgrade atm for me. Now I wont be getting it anytime soon anyways since I am in the middle of car shopping which comes first. But before I do decide on whether to purchase it I would like to get some info on it's current standing with users.
How is the performance in comparison to TGEA?
Is it that much of an upgrade that it would be worth buying to move my project over to?
Are the new features really all that great? And when I say features I mean the river tool as well as the road and forest creator.
Is the lighting and rendering improved enough that it would be better/faster/easier then simply creating what I need in TGEA?
I have used the demo for a half hour to an hour and so far from what I've seen is though it's nice, it's nothing so far that makes me want to shell out $705 atm for my current project. But then I haven't really been using it enough to fully get the idea. So I figured I would ask what other peoples thoughts were on this topic and these questions while I try it out a little more. Any other things you would like to point out on the better side and negative side feel free to list.
About the author
Foestar Entertainment Biohazard Entertainment
#3
If you are targetting more modern hardware T3D looks absolutely stunning if they have the proper hardware to run the Deferred Shading (Advanced Lighting). Need roughly a $100 card nowadays to do that so it isn't horribly expensive, but it isn't going to be running on any integrated video card at any decent rate anytime soon.
That being said, the toolset is about 50x better though if you are looking at the pipeline. Time is money as they say and you will save a lot of time on developing zones using the art pipeline and the toolset is much more fluid.
We have quite a few blog postings (by J.C. Smith) with a bunch of screenshots of some of the work we are doing with it and of course there is the screenshot forum post here. It just really depends on how much $700 is to you and how far along you are with your project and the time it would take to port things.
12/24/2009 (1:56 pm)
The only negative thing I have to say is I still think TGEA will outperform T3D on low end machines if that is your core target. I haven't been quite happy with that area as we see some framerate loss there. Hoping they spend some time on that in the future to get it back up. If you are targetting more modern hardware T3D looks absolutely stunning if they have the proper hardware to run the Deferred Shading (Advanced Lighting). Need roughly a $100 card nowadays to do that so it isn't horribly expensive, but it isn't going to be running on any integrated video card at any decent rate anytime soon.
That being said, the toolset is about 50x better though if you are looking at the pipeline. Time is money as they say and you will save a lot of time on developing zones using the art pipeline and the toolset is much more fluid.
We have quite a few blog postings (by J.C. Smith) with a bunch of screenshots of some of the work we are doing with it and of course there is the screenshot forum post here. It just really depends on how much $700 is to you and how far along you are with your project and the time it would take to port things.
#4
12/24/2009 (2:04 pm)
its all about cost vs worth, depends on what you are really looking for, as far as I am concerned however it is worth every penny, the pipeline as already said is so fluid and easy to use it saves major time, and if you have the horsepower deferred shading is brilliant. 
#5
Better in Basic Lighting, which is akin to the old lighting (but better). Obviously Advanced Lighting with it's fancy shadows isn't really comparable.
Is it that much of an upgrade that it would be worth buying to move my project over to?
Kinda depends how happy you are with TGEA ... T3D editors are flippin' awesome compared to TGE/A pipeline.
Are the new features really all that great? And when I say features I mean the river tool as well as the road and forest creator.
They do exactly what they say on the tin ... Forest Editor is an easy way to place objects - so much faster than doing it all manually one at a time as before, and unlike ShapeReplicator you can put stuff where you want it to be exactly and not just in an area. Road Editor is again a really nice, fast work process. Same with river.
Is the lighting and rendering improved enough that it would be better/faster/easier then simply creating what I need in TGEA?
Well, that kinda depends on "what you need" and "what you're aiming at" hardware-wise. As Joshua said above, old hardware is probably gonna be more suited to TGE/A - and when I say old, I mean single-core CPUs with sub-256mb GPUs. 6 and 7 series cards with a dual-core are fine for Basic Lighting, will have trouble with Advanced Lighting's shadowing.
To be honest, ignoring the fancy lighting eye-candy, the editors are the things which really shine with the live asset updating. If I hadn't had the cash for Source, I'd have grabbed the Binary while it's still a hundred bucks and then saved up for the Source Code version. Paying full price for the Binary (250) and then sometime later the Pro (705) would be a bit painful though.
Of course all of this is IMHO.
12/24/2009 (4:02 pm)
How is the performance in comparison to TGEA?Better in Basic Lighting, which is akin to the old lighting (but better). Obviously Advanced Lighting with it's fancy shadows isn't really comparable.
Is it that much of an upgrade that it would be worth buying to move my project over to?
Kinda depends how happy you are with TGEA ... T3D editors are flippin' awesome compared to TGE/A pipeline.
Are the new features really all that great? And when I say features I mean the river tool as well as the road and forest creator.
They do exactly what they say on the tin ... Forest Editor is an easy way to place objects - so much faster than doing it all manually one at a time as before, and unlike ShapeReplicator you can put stuff where you want it to be exactly and not just in an area. Road Editor is again a really nice, fast work process. Same with river.
Is the lighting and rendering improved enough that it would be better/faster/easier then simply creating what I need in TGEA?
Well, that kinda depends on "what you need" and "what you're aiming at" hardware-wise. As Joshua said above, old hardware is probably gonna be more suited to TGE/A - and when I say old, I mean single-core CPUs with sub-256mb GPUs. 6 and 7 series cards with a dual-core are fine for Basic Lighting, will have trouble with Advanced Lighting's shadowing.
To be honest, ignoring the fancy lighting eye-candy, the editors are the things which really shine with the live asset updating. If I hadn't had the cash for Source, I'd have grabbed the Binary while it's still a hundred bucks and then saved up for the Source Code version. Paying full price for the Binary (250) and then sometime later the Pro (705) would be a bit painful though.
Of course all of this is IMHO.
#6
I think I'll wait a bit before purchasing since I do have car shopping to do and the performance issue on lower machines is kinda a set back for me and my project. I could switch to it, but I wanted to allow players with lower/older spec computers a chance to play as well as give some decent eye candy to those with higher end machines.
My only question at this point is how easy is it to port over from TGEA? Shouldn't be too bad, but I was just wondering if it got any easier with this upgrade.
Also, Happy Holidays to everyone!!
12/25/2009 (3:33 am)
Okay, thanks for the feedback. Sounds to me like it's worth every penny. Though I have to say that I don't really care too much for the forest editor only because that's one thing I enjoy doing. Placing in each and every single tree one at a time. I figure if you want it to look really really nice it's worth taking the time and effort to make sure everything has it's own scale and properties. Haha, but that's probably just me. (Oddly enough I only feel this way about placing in trees.)I think I'll wait a bit before purchasing since I do have car shopping to do and the performance issue on lower machines is kinda a set back for me and my project. I could switch to it, but I wanted to allow players with lower/older spec computers a chance to play as well as give some decent eye candy to those with higher end machines.
My only question at this point is how easy is it to port over from TGEA? Shouldn't be too bad, but I was just wondering if it got any easier with this upgrade.
Also, Happy Holidays to everyone!!
#7
I found porting over "fairly" straight-forwards, though I've not actually got that much custom code, just a few extra cpp files, needed a bit of tweaking, adding bitstream (or something) as an include.
TorqueScript is TorqueScript, directory structure is a bit different.
12/25/2009 (6:38 am)
'Appy 'Ols.I found porting over "fairly" straight-forwards, though I've not actually got that much custom code, just a few extra cpp files, needed a bit of tweaking, adding bitstream (or something) as an include.
TorqueScript is TorqueScript, directory structure is a bit different.
#8
Its way too easy to slip into years up 'upgrades' and never really accompishing anything. Just ask 3DRealms.
IMO you should finish your game and ship it. You learn more from the last few months of shipping a game about yourself and what it takes than the years you put into it before that point.
Unless there is a clear need which Torque 3D fills then your better off shipping and taking that experience and appying it to a new project.
12/28/2009 (1:24 pm)
@FoestarIts way too easy to slip into years up 'upgrades' and never really accompishing anything. Just ask 3DRealms.
IMO you should finish your game and ship it. You learn more from the last few months of shipping a game about yourself and what it takes than the years you put into it before that point.
Unless there is a clear need which Torque 3D fills then your better off shipping and taking that experience and appying it to a new project.
#9
really eye-opening article Tom.
Hadn't really been a fan of Duke but... 12 years on one game. amazing.
12/28/2009 (11:59 pm)
awesome.really eye-opening article Tom.
Hadn't really been a fan of Duke but... 12 years on one game. amazing.
#10
I loved the "3D Realms Recipe For Disaster" piechart.
Overweening Perfectionism - who's not got a little of this?
Obsession with Upgrades - it's nice to have "more" stuff
Staggering Wealth - no, I don't think any of us here have this "problem"!
12/29/2009 (8:54 am)
Yeah, great article link.I loved the "3D Realms Recipe For Disaster" piechart.
Overweening Perfectionism - who's not got a little of this?
Obsession with Upgrades - it's nice to have "more" stuff
Staggering Wealth - no, I don't think any of us here have this "problem"!
Quote:former employees say, he did not appear to have an endgame — an overall plan for what the finished product would look like, and thus a way to recognize when it was nearing completionHopefully, everyone's got a vague idea of what a shipped version of their project will look like rather than spending 12 years trying to find out.
#11
Also, I couldn't stop laughing when you mentioned 3D Realms. I loved Duke Nukem and remember having Duke 3D and Duke it out in Washington and all the other expansions. Heck, even the old school side scrolling version rocked. But it's a shame how that project turned out.
12/30/2009 (8:18 pm)
Thanks for the advice. I think I'm gonna stick to TGEA for now with this project. Though I intend to get T3D at some point in the future, for now I'll settle with TGEA.Also, I couldn't stop laughing when you mentioned 3D Realms. I loved Duke Nukem and remember having Duke 3D and Duke it out in Washington and all the other expansions. Heck, even the old school side scrolling version rocked. But it's a shame how that project turned out.
Torque Owner Daniel Buckmaster
T3D Steering Committee