Seeking advice on purchasing a new system for game development

#1 Alienware is gonna cost you more money than its worth unless your looking for a cool, simple, expensive case mod.

I'd go with VC++ .NET 2003 if you can.

Something to remember. If you get the biggest machine they have, your gonna need testers cause its a good chance only about 1% of the people who buy your game will have a similiar machine.. unless your planning a 2-3 yr game project.

-Tim

#2 First of all, what kind of game are you making? I'm doing 3D modelling, programming (not TGE related) and Photoshop work on a sub 1GHz Celeron. It's working great, it isn't impeding my work at all. Granted, I'm developing for Torque, which doesn't need a lot of horsepower, and my models aren't very detailed due to the nature of the game.

IMO, the trick to using an older computer effectively is to have a lot of RAM (very cheap nowadays), and a decent graphics card (something between 50 and 100 dollars).

I'm considering buying a low-end current generation PC, something between 1.5 and 2 GHz for the CPU and with a mid-grade graphics card, but only because I want to be able to run some of the newer 3D games more smoothly (like Morrowind).

#3 Thank you Tim and Thomas. I want to make it clear that this would be the limit of my purchasing power (which is currently under deep discussion). I do plan on using the system for years to come and possibly for projects just outside game development as well (my own DVD movies?) ;)

Now, this system may in fact be overboard, but I'm hoping that the games I produce will also have a chance for going console afterwards and this would be an automatic medium between the two (PC vs. console).

@Tim - Cost for just the system here would be around $4k, but it's not for the case by a longshot! I'll post the system specs below.

VC++.Net 2003, no problem ;)

Again, I currently use a P3 1gig and if testing is more of a concern I doubt it would be a problem finding help here in the community. Now, though my first project (should be finished in about 6-12 months, trying for a working demo in 3) will be better suited for current times as well as Torque (though may be pushing it ;), I will also be working on a few extremely massive projects which could indeed take anywhere from 2 to 5 years to produce (again, I'm estimating on my own here).

So yes, I'm planning to be able to complete everything on my own if I have to.

@Thomas - I'll be concentrating on either a Multi-player, Role-playing FPS or a MMO Adventure game, both of which I have designed. I also plan on using it to further enhance my work on Realm Wars and possibly help it come together quicker (I know James would love some extra help :).

As for what I use now, my P3 1 gig can be outrun by a horse-drawn carriage :P

Of course, this system will be used for 3D, Sound design, code, FMV, etc., so I need a system that can handle the workload.

Any suggestions for any and all development tools/software are greatly appreciated, thanks!

- Chris

#4 Chris, in my opinion your about to do a lot of foolish things. First, buying and alienware, they are cool computers (no arguing with that) but they are seriously overpriced for what they are. Last time I checked (6 months ago), you could build your own computer with all the same parts for about half the cost of buying an alienware. Go to www.pricewatch.com you can find inexpensive computer hardware there, and you can probably save yourself at least a grand if you build the machine yourself (it isnt hard). As for graphics cards, I wouldnt go with a quadro, thats just overkill (unless you want to make CG dvd movies... then its underkill ;) ), if you want good performance that will rival average consumer PC's for the next few years then I suggest getting a geforce4 TI, they are strong solid cards (and reasonably priced) and it'll probably be a few years before they are considered old and crappy (and at that time you can just buy a new video card).

Ok, the second foolish thing it looks like your doing... never get the latest and greatest anything in computers, it just isnt worth it. The way computers work you can get this weeks fastest processor for $600, then in a month a faster one will come out and yours will be bumped down to 300, a couple months after that another processor will come out and yours will be 200. What I'm trying to say is always get slightly older everything. Now I'm not saying get obsolete hardware, just get slightly lower end new stuff, it will be 1/3 the price in a lot of cases, for instance, dont get a 3ghz p4 for $600, get a 2.4 ghz for $200, you wont be able to tell a difference anyway. Just make sure you get a lot of ram, 512-1024mb, make sure you get a big standard case and things that will last like a nice hard drive, cd burner, dvd rom that you can use with your next computer. If you do things like this then instead of blowing your budget for the next decade on one computer that could be obsolete in 3 years (that will be overkill right now anyway), build a slightly less awesome computer yourself, and every year or two gut out the motherboard, cpu, videocard (and whatever else you want) and and put new ones in, it will be relatively inexpensive to upgrade as opposed to buying a whole new computer, and it will really stretch out your budget and allow you to stay current (keep in mind the 64bit processors will be hitting the scene in a little shy of a year, dont waist all your money on a 32bit processor and then be stuck with it for the next 5 years). As for your console argument, your p3 1ghz with a geforce3 would probably be better then any console out now, so dont think you will need a 3ghz with a quadroFX just to work on the ps2 (btw a p3 1ghz is not that slow)

ok, the third foolish thing is your choice of software. Like computers, go for slightly less, you said your budget is 4k, I dont think that will even cover max 5.1, see if they are still selling 4, I believe (a few months ago) they were willing to nock a grand off version 4, and unless you already know max really well and love it, I suggest you look into Maya or lightwave, maya is 2k I believe and lightwave is like 1k (that might have just been a promo thing a few months ago), but either way, they will be half the price of max (keep in mind max doesnt even include character studio, thats another grand). Then with photoshop, if you arnt already in love with it, I suggest you just use gimp, its free and not as good, but pretty good (keep in mind photoshop can cost you about 1k, so if you can settle for gimp then do it!). As for torque, GOOD THINKING! 100 dollars and you get a fixed up tribes II engine and a helpfull comunity, cant beat that!

oh one last thing, considering you seem to have a get the best of everything attitude, I think it would be wise to suggest you dont get an lcd monitor, I got a 19inch mag for 150 and I'm thinking about getting a second so I can do duel monitors. A 19 inch LCD can go from 800-1k. At some point you just gotta ask yourself, "is 2 feet of desk space directly behind my monitor really worth $800?"

remember your an indie and you cant expect your work to pay for your tools, you gotta play it smart and watch your resources like a hawk, just some friendly suggestions, and good luck with whatever you choose.

*goes back to dreaming about tablet pc's*

#5 I have to agree with the previous posts. I bought an aleinware box, am I happy with it... hell yes. could I have done better? hell yes.. I could have baught 2 high end dells for the price of this rig. Or could have built a web farm ;) I spent nearly 4k on the rig that my son now uses and I do not hardly even touch :( and it was bought for me to make games and play games. I now do all my work on a Dell Inspiron 8200, go figure


-Ron

#6 Hey! I do all mine on an Inspiron 8200, too ;)

(I do primarily web development, with plenty of "office stuff" - word processing, presentations development - and game playing. The GeForce 440 Go! in it isn't the greatest card, but it's solid.)

But I agree, 4k for a box, unless you're specifically targetting 2-3 year development cycle, is just silly. You can get a pretty nice box for 2k, then upgrade every year or so - get a nice, $400 graphics card or something, sell the old one for $200. :)

Alienware is definitely a name, but are you paying for the name, or the hardware? Bear in mind also, that most of those neat extra features will stop working after the first reinstall of XP.

(As an example: I have some nice volume control buttons on my laptop. However, if I choose to run a non-explorer shell, I can't use 'em. In fact, about half my "special" buttons stop. The situation is only worse when you have more advanced peripherals...)

#7 4 GRAND!!!! Thats like the price of a Mac dual G4 high end!

You can build a really nice computer for 1 grand.
(3ghz Athlon, 1GB DDR ram, nforce2 (double data rate on ram since the 1 gig is 2 512 chips), Geforce 4 TI 4800 8x, 80gb harddrive, cool case, power supply, fan, all round IDE cables, 4 thumbscrews, etc)

Here is a wish list with that system - secure.newegg.com/app/WishHistoryReview.asp?position=HISTORY&submit=VIEW&ID=2857...
(1 of the 512sticks of ram is missing.. so youd need to factor in that extra on the total on that page)

I'd call what I just listed a very nice system... I bet that alienware for 4 grand isn't a lot better.

-Tim

#8 This should clear up the reason behind that seemingly sadistic price, which turns out to be fairly decent considering the capabilities of the system (not the fancy box):

Processor: 3.06 Ghz P4 w/HT (Hyper Threading) - Includes Heatsink/Fan

Motherboard: Intel D875PBZ (Bonanza)

Chipset: i875P (Canterwood) - Dual-Channel DDR400 Support - PAT (Performance Acceleration Technology)- Includes Heatsink

Bus Speed: 800 Mhz FSB

RAM: 1 Gig DDR400 (Unknown Maximum)

HD: Dual Seagate 120 Gig SATA Hard Drives using RAID Configuration (7200 RPMs; 8 Mb Cache Buffer)

CD-RW: 52X/42X/52X Lite-On CD-RW Drive

DVD ROM: Sony DRU-500A, (Supports DVD+R/RW and DVD-R/RW media)

Digital Media Drive: AtechFlash Seven-In-One USB Media Card Reader. (Supports Compact Flash Type I/II, IBM MicroDrive, Memory Stick, MultiMedia Card, Secure Digital Card, and SmartMedia Card Formats)

Connectivity: Intel PRO/1000 CT Gigabit Ethernet Adapter (Motherboard).

Power Supply: Enermax EG65P1-VE at 550W

Video Card: ATI Radeon 9800 Pro - AGP 8X

Video RAM: 128MB DDR-SDRAM

Sound Card: Creative Labs Sound Blaster Audigy2 Platinum EX

Speakers: Klipsch ProMedia GMX D-5.1 SurroundSound Speakers (6-Piece Set)

Monitor: NEC FE2111 SB 22-inch CRT

Case: "Cyborg Green" Predator - Full Tower (3 Case Fans)

Keyboard: "Cyborg Green" MS Internet Keyboard

Mouse: "Cyborg Green" MS Intellimouse Explorer 3.0

USB: 4 Rear USB 2.0 Ports

Operating System: WinXP Pro

Bundled Software: Ahead Nero Burning ROM, ArcSoft ShowBiz, CyberLink PowerDVD, Roxio Easy CD Creator 5, and Sonic MyDVD

Benchmarked:
Quake III Arena (1,024 x 768 Res.) -- 305.8 FPS
UT2k3 2.1 (1,600 x 1,200 Res.) ------ 114.5 FPS

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Total Price (Including $599 for Monitor and $299 for Speakers) == $3,797

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Hope this helps! 8^D

- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus

#9 @Eric -

Quote:As for graphics cards, I wouldnt go with a quadro, thats just overkill (unless you want to make CG dvd movies... then its underkill ;) )

I guess CG DVD Movies are possible: ;)

Performance Features
- Full 128-bit floating-point precision pipeline
- 12-bit subpixel precision
- 8 pixels per clock rendering engine
- Hardware accelerated antialiased points & lines
- Hardware OpenGL overlay planes
- Hardware accelerated two-sided lighting
- Hardware accelerated clipping planes
- 3rd-generation occlusion culling
- 16 textures per pixel
- OpenGL quad-buffered stereo (3-pin sync connector)
- AGP 8x with Fast Writes and sideband addressing
- High-speed 128MB DDR2 memory
- Fully programmable GPU (OpenGL 2.0/DirectX 9.0 class)
- Optimized compiler for Cg and Microsoft HLSL
- 16x Full-Scene Antialiasing (FSAA) up to 2048x1536 per display or 3840x2400 for single digital display
- Dual DVI output - Drives two independent digital displays at 1600x1200, or one at 3840x2400
- Dual-link TMDS - Drives one digital display up to 2048x1536 and another at 1600x1200 simultaneously
- Dual 400MHz RAMDACs
- NVIDIA Unified Driver Architecture (UDA)
- Fully compliant with professional OpenGL 2.0 and DirectX 9.0

Package Contains:
- PNY NVIDIA Quadro FX 2000 AGP Graphics Card
- CD-ROM Containing:
-- Drivers for Windows XP, 2000 & NT including DirectX 9.0 and OpenGL 2.0 support
-- Detailed Installation Guide
-- Quickstart Installation Guide
-- NVIDIA Quadro Application Utilities CD-ROM (MAXtreme , POWERdraft , & QuadroView )

I could have all sorts of fun with this!!

Back to your post...

Quote:...you said your budget is 4k, I dont think that will even cover max 5.1...

No, the System Cost is about $4k, I haven't mentioned my finances but let's just say it's affordable enough. :)

Oh yeah, and the 3DS Max 5.1/Char. Studio 4 Combo is $4k as well. Kinda pricy, but well worth it since it could be considered affordable in my case.

I was thinking about Maya as well...

Anywho, like I said, I am hoping that within 2-4 years down the road I will be busy converting games from PC to Console and this system would make it ideal for rather easier conversions IMHO.

Thanks for the great advice so far, keep it coming (check out them specs ;) )!

- Christopher Dapo ~ Ronixus

#10 *drools on self after reading specs* I agree, this is all pretty cool, and I'm sure you can have a lot of fun with it (like completely covering the torque terrain with fxgrass... mmmmmmm), but I'm gonna have to stick with my view that its kinda not really worth the cost, I'd go with tims suggestion, that gives you a computer which is almost as good, for a fourth the price, sure it doesnt have all the bells and whistles, but the core machine is about the same, in fact if you were given the two to play with for a few hours (without knowing which was which) I doubt you could even tell a difference. Honestly, if you want to work on torque then your pIII and a geforce 2 is really all you need (same thing for porting to consoles, they really arnt that powerfull)... but I can understand where your comming from, heck, I'd love to have all that fancy shit to... I just thought I'd let you know that you could do way better for your money. If your cool with spending all that then go for it, its important that your happy with your system, since you'll be using it so much. I come from a real pinch a penny family, and I'm in college, so I'm kinda conditioned to see how far I can stretch a dollar.

#11 I'd save that 2-3 grand and put it into your game instead.

You're going to want to hire outside resources at some point to help you out; either lincensing some code from someone, hiring a 3D modeller to make some fancy character models, or a graphic artist to make custom textures or user interface.

You're also going to have to be able to buy the console development kits, which are between 20K and 100K depending on what kind of deal you make with the console manufacturer. That's a lot of money.

But if you say that finances aren't a problem, then I'd say that the answer to your question is yes, that would be more than adequate for game development, even at the high-end of today's games.

#12 well said tom... I just checked your profile chris "I'm lacking in professional and educational experience", I didnt realise you were that guy with the like 10 different projects... (blunt mode on) listen, from what I've read here (and I could easily be wrong) I'm getting the impression that you dont really know what your doing, and thats a bad thing if your about to sink close to 10 grand on your endevours. It says in your profile that your mostly a 2d artist, and have done some mild work in milkshape, didnt even say anything about programming. From what I can tell your a newbie, and if you get a computer like this, by the time you build up some skills, it will probably be obsolete. max 5.1 and vs.net are very large, powerfull development tools, and they also have a pretty steep learning curve, your dedication is good, but no matter how strong your drive, you cant just jump straight in and make a game, you have to learn a lot first, and getting the latest and greatest everything wont make this any easier (getting max 5.1 wont make learning max any easier then if you got 4.0), and if you dont know how to program, taking vs.net out of the box and loading up torque could mindfuck you, leaving you curled up in a closet crying to your mother (not that I'm saying your dumb or anything, but torque is not easy to code, and your gonna have to learn a TON before torque will even make any sense). Also your talk of prorting pc games to consoles worries me. I dont think you realise that except for the gameboy advance, you need to buy a development kit to port games over to a console, and these can cost anywhere from the price of a car to a small house. Also, if you've never programmed before the you have a LONG road ahead of you before your able to code for consoles (I hear the xbox is pretty easy, but the ps2 is a never ending hell). I think the best advice I can give you is to get a modest pc and the cheepest version of max you can find (probably educational), learn C++, and practice modeling and coding untill you get good (or give up), then when your really ready, upgrade your max license to the current full version and get a super bad ass computer and make the best game I've ever seen ;)

(blunt mode off)

#13 That system is still not worth 4 grand. You could probably build it for 2 grand.. maybe 2.5. On another note I'd go with the AMD 3 ghz unless that is one of the fixed P4 3 ghz chips (not sure if they are shipping the fixed ones yet...they may come up with a software/firmware update to fix the buggy ones) because a bug was discovered in it.

"Intel engineers noticed the erratum while "stress testing" a "small number" of 3.0-GHz processors in the laboratory, the spokesman said. "Lab stressed units sent incorrect information to the rest of the system," the spokesman said."

Now its a probably good chance you won't see this bug, but you are spending 4 grand so you might want to take your chances.

-Tim

#14 Actually the AlienWare machines are a fairly good deal for the money. They are about 10% - 15% over what you might could piece together from pricewatch.com if everything was "free" shipping. I have purcahsed Alienware machines in the past and they arrive ready to go. No assembly or problems with hardware conflicts or anything, if TIME == MONEY then the extra 10% premium you pay for them to assemble and futz with configuration ( which one soundblaster card can make into a living week long hell of swapping parts and other hair pulling exerecies was WAY worth it! )

I would say don't skimp on the video card, but the Quadro is NOT a game card it is a CAD card. Get a 9700/9800 PRO or similar.

#15 Chris,

Is all the software included in this deal, cause you may be getting a decent deal then, but other wise it is goig to cost you more. As for the tools go with Maya $1,999 for the complete package so unless you think you need fur, cloth and dynamics it is the way to go. Also commenting about other peoples comments about VS.NET. If you are not a programmer then of course you are going to have a hard time using this, in fact I would be very impressed if you figured out how to complie, but that is not saying much cause if you had your programmers use Maya or Max they would be very lost. The one thing about C++.NET IDE is that I am sure you can't configure it to do makes of other types. Which is what you need to compile unmanaged C++. For that you would need VS.NET Pro or better. You would be much better of to go with Visual Studio 6.0 for a c++ project from the cost side.

Price List
Visual Studio 6.0 C++ only = 99.00
Maya Complete 5 = 1,999.00
The Main Box = 1,000.00
22" monitor = 500.00
Geforce 5800 or Radeon 9800 = 399.00
______________________________________
Total = 3,497

#16 The Quadro 4 / Quadro FX (both of which I use) are geared towards giving you distinct advantages in multi-windowed scenarios such as CAD or general modelling work. Don't use the QuadroFX if you're interested in quad-stereo as there are problems with using the references drivers from nVidia and the ones that do work are poor performers. Hopefully, the Detonator 50.xx (FX drivers) should sort some of this.

The card kicks serious butt, but if you want it for general development work then save your money and get a 9700/9800 or nVidia 5800 (not ultra). Hell, you probably don't need even this much power.

- Melv.

#17 I concur with others that say Alienware is WAY overpriced. That used
to not be the case, but it is now. Take the specs you like from the
Alienware site and go type them in over at the Dell site. You'll get
the same machine for about half the price. I did that recently and
that is what I discovered. Ended up getting the Dell and am very
happy with it.

I have a second machine that I built myself and that is also a good
way to go, although I think the Dell was actually slightly cheaper.
Don't be afraid to build your own. All components are standard so
you just plug them together and vioula. The toughest part is installing
the OS, I think, but that is a good skill to have. I just left XP on
the Dell that came with it, but dual boot Win98 and Linux on the built
one. Since ya gotta install the OS anyway might as well do it right!

#18 I would highly recomend just building your own system. It is not difficult at all, and it saves you quite a bit.

#19 (If you're planning on doing any sort of serious game development, and you can't install your OS, you're in trouble :). If not now, then when the support calls come in...)

#20 build your own system or just upgrade the one you have. use some money and buy either a radeon 9500 pro or something in that price range. yeah, fast cards are nice, but the average gamer has half of that and it sounds like you're just coming out of the gate on this idea. you have a computer, use some of your old hardware and just upgrade the stuff you need and you'll save about, well, $3,500. i mean, jesus christ, look at the money you're talking about spending. i feel like i'm taking crazy pills or something. just get a new motherboard and processor and some ram and a video card, maybe a new hard drive if you're feeling squirrely. i upgraded a 200 mhz micron to a 2.4 ghz machine with a radeon 9500 pro and 512 (400 mhz) ddr for like, $400. i have two of them for less than half of the price i paid for my powerbook. i tell you what, you send me four grand and i'll build you a computer that talks to you like f***ing kit on knightrider.