Torque3D and Unity's New Pricing
by Dark Tengu · in General Discussion · 10/28/2009 (11:23 pm) · 168 replies
Now that Unity Indie is now free, can we expect something similar with Torque3D?
#42
10/30/2009 (7:16 am)
As it seems that nobody bothered to check, you CAN get a source code license for Unity and you don't necessarily have to "work closely" with Unity to create MMOs such as Fusion Fall. By the way, the improvements and optimizations made with the collaboration with Cartoon Network for Fusion Fall have made their way into the new version of Unity so pretty much everything has been standardized meaning nobody gets special treatment as improvements are included with new releases no matter where the improvements were a result of. I think this is better than everyone just doing their own thing with the source code and later on have disastrous consequences when what they made isn't compatible with the newer version. If people insist on messing with the source code, that's their choice but it won't surprise me if they have problems later on with compatibility. I just wonder how the Torque Web Player handles, if at all, code that has been heavily customized.
#43
As far as I can tell, and as people here have hinted, Unity is the most artist-friendly game engine (or game builder if you prefer) out there. (A simple pleasure for me was that the navigation controls are the same as Maya's. Ahhh — that should be a law or something.) Now, with a price tag of zero, it is REALLY artist-friendly. Of course, this does not necessarily make for a good engine — just happy artists.
But by putting their product in the hands of people at no cost, they will almost certainly be building a huge base of users. Those users that stick with it — because they really want to make games and there is no other affordable alternative — may not be familiar with the Pro feature set, but they will know how to use the software.
Assuming Unity's quality, power and features continue improving, the simple fact of a large base of users could seriously aid in creating a demand for the Pro license. (I'm talking about hiring companies here, not just Joe Schmoe upgrading to Pro for his personal use).
By the way, people are making money using Unity, so folks should come up with a better pejorative than "hobbyist engine".
10/30/2009 (10:49 am)
Okay, now there are an awful lot of experienced programmers on these forums, but here's my perspective as an artist who has used T3D and Unity (T3D more than Unity), and as a student of business:As far as I can tell, and as people here have hinted, Unity is the most artist-friendly game engine (or game builder if you prefer) out there. (A simple pleasure for me was that the navigation controls are the same as Maya's. Ahhh — that should be a law or something.) Now, with a price tag of zero, it is REALLY artist-friendly. Of course, this does not necessarily make for a good engine — just happy artists.
But by putting their product in the hands of people at no cost, they will almost certainly be building a huge base of users. Those users that stick with it — because they really want to make games and there is no other affordable alternative — may not be familiar with the Pro feature set, but they will know how to use the software.
Assuming Unity's quality, power and features continue improving, the simple fact of a large base of users could seriously aid in creating a demand for the Pro license. (I'm talking about hiring companies here, not just Joe Schmoe upgrading to Pro for his personal use).
By the way, people are making money using Unity, so folks should come up with a better pejorative than "hobbyist engine".
#44
Torque has not only been shipping MMO's for longer than most other engines have been in this space, but it's helped independent developers develop proprietary MMO technology without requiring them to give it back to Torque. It's fostered the development and funding of countless games through the unwavering support of the developers, by providing technology, support, and a marketplace for not only their games, but the Art, Script and Code they want to sell. From the get-go, Torque provided a store, and included our customers in that store. Art packs, code packs, tools and products. Torque doesn't just integrate with middleware; Torque helps indys make middleware.
It pains me to think where the independent game development movement would be if Torque had started out being such a draconian gatekeeper on the dreams of indy developers. "Hey guys, guess what? No matter how successful your game is; no matter how agile your team; no matter how badass your brain-trust is...you can't move faster than we do, and you can't keep your C++ code." This isn't power to the developer. This is "selling the dream" (and only the dream) to a whole new level.
10/30/2009 (11:32 am)
Quote:You can get a source code license for (for the right price). It's read only. You are required to submit any code changes back to Unity if you want them integrated into the C++ code. A good question to be asking is, "If you aren't 'working closely' will you even be able to write an MMO?" Or maybe better, "If you aren't EA, will you be able to ship your MMO?"
As it seems that nobody bothered to check, you CAN get a source code license for Unity and you don't necessarily have to "work closely" with Unity to create MMOs such as Fusion Fall.
Quote:That is one perspective, another perspective is that professional developers like to develop, implement, and sell intellectual property without being required to give it back to a company simply in order to be able to test it out for their game. Professional developers like to be able to tell their team, "I know I can get this done because I have access to all of the tools which make my job possible, like merge tools, debugging tools, profiling tools, and version control."
I think this is better than everyone just doing their own thing with the source code and later on have disastrous consequences when what they made isn't compatible with the newer version.
Torque has not only been shipping MMO's for longer than most other engines have been in this space, but it's helped independent developers develop proprietary MMO technology without requiring them to give it back to Torque. It's fostered the development and funding of countless games through the unwavering support of the developers, by providing technology, support, and a marketplace for not only their games, but the Art, Script and Code they want to sell. From the get-go, Torque provided a store, and included our customers in that store. Art packs, code packs, tools and products. Torque doesn't just integrate with middleware; Torque helps indys make middleware.
It pains me to think where the independent game development movement would be if Torque had started out being such a draconian gatekeeper on the dreams of indy developers. "Hey guys, guess what? No matter how successful your game is; no matter how agile your team; no matter how badass your brain-trust is...you can't move faster than we do, and you can't keep your C++ code." This isn't power to the developer. This is "selling the dream" (and only the dream) to a whole new level.
#45
Well said.
10/30/2009 (12:05 pm)
Quote:"Hey guys, guess what? No matter how successful your game is; no matter how agile your team; no matter how badass your brain-trust is...you can't move faster than we do, and you can't keep your C++ code." This isn't power to the developer. This is "selling the dream" (and only the dream) to a whole new level.
Well said.
#46
Plus there are always bugs and its nice to debug into it and fix it. When your sandboxed like with Unity your limited on what you can do and what you can fix.
I like the freedom of being able to do whatever I want to the engine, the tools, the networking, etc. That way it can really be molded to what we want to create.
Also on a side note I am running winserver 2008 to utilize hyper-v environments. Torque works fine, Unity free wont even run on it just crashes and there is really no way to look at it to see whats going wrong. had to find another box just to check it out.
anyway, there are going to be lots of different view points in this based on peoples backgrounds, likes, etc.
But to sum it up, I like being able to take the engine and just run with it, no boundaries, no limitations, make it your own is very appealing to developers :)
10/30/2009 (1:42 pm)
As a programmer I find Torque to be the leader over Unity. I can understand why artists are less biased as they want the killer tools that make it easy to get content in. But as a developer Torque is like a mound of clay that I can turn into anything, customize to my hearts content, make proprietary changes, etc. Unity is more along the lines of you can do things but your limited to how they implemented it in their code. Scripting an entire game is not appealing to me at all as it can become a limiting factor.Plus there are always bugs and its nice to debug into it and fix it. When your sandboxed like with Unity your limited on what you can do and what you can fix.
I like the freedom of being able to do whatever I want to the engine, the tools, the networking, etc. That way it can really be molded to what we want to create.
Also on a side note I am running winserver 2008 to utilize hyper-v environments. Torque works fine, Unity free wont even run on it just crashes and there is really no way to look at it to see whats going wrong. had to find another box just to check it out.
anyway, there are going to be lots of different view points in this based on peoples backgrounds, likes, etc.
But to sum it up, I like being able to take the engine and just run with it, no boundaries, no limitations, make it your own is very appealing to developers :)
#47
10/30/2009 (3:01 pm)
I love it how some people make it seem like without source, you are going to be extremely limited in what you can create. I think this because of the way most engines have been built in the past. Now I am not saying that this means that everyone is able to use technology like Unity, however I think the is a lot of misinformed hobbyist and indies that think they need engine source code. A lot of people (like me) just want to make games and could care less about integrating middleware into an engine they buy. Sure if you need voxel based terrian, I don't believe that is possible with Unity right now, so don't buy it, but that does not make your engine so much better for everyone. Each engine has their pro's and con's, my opinion is that Unity gives you faster production time and a much better overall integrated tools, Torque gives you source code access. For me, source code access means nothing so unity is much better for me, does not mean torque is a bad engine tho, it is pretty kick ass for the money.
#48
Who dreams about the freedom to not have to share their code? It's nice to not have to share your code changes, but I think your post is taking "melodrama" to a whole new level. =)
Yes this was very poetic, but the fact is most of us just want to make a freaking game. That's our real dream. A free Unity Indie does much more to make that dream come true than all the T3D upgrades and blogs in the world. Don't even try to spin it.
I guess since Unity Indie is free this means Torque has been officially dethroned as the "cheap engine". Now when someone says "eh torque, isnt that the cheap engine" GG can now proudly say "NO! Unity Indie is the true cheap engine!". In a way, Unity Indie going free has resolved the nagging problem of torque always being pegged as the "cheap engine". No? You guys owe Unity a debt of gratitude for this.
10/31/2009 (4:17 pm)
Quote:
Torque has not only been shipping MMO's for longer than most other engines have been in this space, but it's helped independent developers develop proprietary MMO technology without requiring them to give it back to Torque.
Quote:
This isn't power to the developer. This is "selling the dream" (and only the dream) to a whole new level.
Who dreams about the freedom to not have to share their code? It's nice to not have to share your code changes, but I think your post is taking "melodrama" to a whole new level. =)
Yes this was very poetic, but the fact is most of us just want to make a freaking game. That's our real dream. A free Unity Indie does much more to make that dream come true than all the T3D upgrades and blogs in the world. Don't even try to spin it.
I guess since Unity Indie is free this means Torque has been officially dethroned as the "cheap engine". Now when someone says "eh torque, isnt that the cheap engine" GG can now proudly say "NO! Unity Indie is the true cheap engine!". In a way, Unity Indie going free has resolved the nagging problem of torque always being pegged as the "cheap engine". No? You guys owe Unity a debt of gratitude for this.
#49
Not that what you said isn't spin at all lol. Blender is free as well as there's just so many games being made with that to.. oh wait.. no there isn't.
UnityPro, let alone Unity indie is what it is which is quite a bit less than what T3D offers. That's a fact so please don't try and argue it like some of the other Unity people have done recently. Having said that, Unity is still a great game development tool. I hope it catches up (which I have no doubt the Unity team has plans) and moves forward, as I hope Torque continues to refine it's ease of use and tools.
People should use what works for them because in the end Dev's are Dev's and defending a specific camp verses another serves none of us.
10/31/2009 (4:54 pm)
Quote:A free Unity Indie does much more to make that dream come true than all the T3D upgrades and blogs in the world. Don't even try to spin it.
Not that what you said isn't spin at all lol. Blender is free as well as there's just so many games being made with that to.. oh wait.. no there isn't.
UnityPro, let alone Unity indie is what it is which is quite a bit less than what T3D offers. That's a fact so please don't try and argue it like some of the other Unity people have done recently. Having said that, Unity is still a great game development tool. I hope it catches up (which I have no doubt the Unity team has plans) and moves forward, as I hope Torque continues to refine it's ease of use and tools.
People should use what works for them because in the end Dev's are Dev's and defending a specific camp verses another serves none of us.
#50
10/31/2009 (5:03 pm)
Sean does make some good points. Certainly, I can't see how anyone can deny that Unity has really hit a home run for all the "hobbyists". IIRC, when pricing was announced for T3D it was stated that Torque's target market was no longer hobbyists anyhow. Sure there are some hobbyists, like myself, who have money and will pony up for T3D, but it sure is nice to have a free option. I guess pretty soon we will have TGEA and Unity. Hell it's a great time to be a "hobbyist" ain't it?
#51
Your user Icon says a lot about yourself.
Blender is not free, it is OpenSource, a very different thing. And there are a lot of games being produced with it. Not comercial ones, but there are a lot.
For a lot of game designers Unity, even the free version, is a lot more than what T3D offers: it is a stable, powefull and very productive tool to build your 3D games, with a very good documentation, easy scripting lenguage, the best assets workflow out there, really Mac usable, with easy webplayer, mac and PC executables output... and now it is free :)
Having said that, T3D is still a great development tool. I hope it catches up (which I have no doubt the GG team has plans) and moves forward, as I hope Unity continues to refine it's ease of use and tools.
People should use what works for them because in the end Dev's are Dev's and defending a specific camp verses another serves none of us.
11/01/2009 (3:52 am)
@ Andrew,Your user Icon says a lot about yourself.
Blender is not free, it is OpenSource, a very different thing. And there are a lot of games being produced with it. Not comercial ones, but there are a lot.
For a lot of game designers Unity, even the free version, is a lot more than what T3D offers: it is a stable, powefull and very productive tool to build your 3D games, with a very good documentation, easy scripting lenguage, the best assets workflow out there, really Mac usable, with easy webplayer, mac and PC executables output... and now it is free :)
Having said that, T3D is still a great development tool. I hope it catches up (which I have no doubt the GG team has plans) and moves forward, as I hope Unity continues to refine it's ease of use and tools.
People should use what works for them because in the end Dev's are Dev's and defending a specific camp verses another serves none of us.
#52
yes it does.. it says I like to bug, tease, chide GG staff at every chance I can. But.. thanks for going the personal route... that DOES say alot about YOU though.
And.. coping what I said and switching words to suit you doesn't make it true. It's that kind of disinformation that muddies the waters for everyone. The big difference is, what I said was true.
11/01/2009 (11:58 am)
Quote:Your user Icon says a lot about yourself.
yes it does.. it says I like to bug, tease, chide GG staff at every chance I can. But.. thanks for going the personal route... that DOES say alot about YOU though.
And.. coping what I said and switching words to suit you doesn't make it true. It's that kind of disinformation that muddies the waters for everyone. The big difference is, what I said was true.
#53
All he did what switch out Unity for T3D. While copying you does not say much about him, what he said is true, T3D is still a great development tool (like Unity) and T3D will continue to grow and get better (like Unity as well). What is not true in that statement?
11/01/2009 (2:18 pm)
Quote:And.. coping what I said and switching words to suit you doesn't make it true. It's that kind of disinformation that muddies the waters for everyone. The big difference is, what I said was true.
All he did what switch out Unity for T3D. While copying you does not say much about him, what he said is true, T3D is still a great development tool (like Unity) and T3D will continue to grow and get better (like Unity as well). What is not true in that statement?
#55
11/01/2009 (3:23 pm)
there is no price for $250, but there will be a $500 T3D version which is not out yet.
#56
T3D has several more advanced features, which is what most people would assume one means when you say catching up.
Unity has a great user interface/tools where T3D still comes alittle short in comparison.
What he changed it to suggests the opposite, at least to me. That's why I called it muddying the waters and disinformation.. it takes truth and twists it to suggest something else while the base of it remains true.
Now, I have other things to do so to each their own, good luck everyone, and Ryan, I'll be seeing you on another forum! ;)
11/01/2009 (3:34 pm)
Nothings wrong with what you said Ryan.. but that's not what was said.T3D has several more advanced features, which is what most people would assume one means when you say catching up.
Unity has a great user interface/tools where T3D still comes alittle short in comparison.
What he changed it to suggests the opposite, at least to me. That's why I called it muddying the waters and disinformation.. it takes truth and twists it to suggest something else while the base of it remains true.
Now, I have other things to do so to each their own, good luck everyone, and Ryan, I'll be seeing you on another forum! ;)
#57
I just bought this product thinking that it was the correct version. After uninstalling the "other Torque 3D" and installing the newly purchased one, I have come to find out what a mistake this was.
The version on that link should not even be sold.
Where is the World Editor?
The rendering of the terrain is terrible.
11/01/2009 (4:17 pm)
What about this link: http://www.garagegames.com/products/torquex-3d/I just bought this product thinking that it was the correct version. After uninstalling the "other Torque 3D" and installing the newly purchased one, I have come to find out what a mistake this was.
The version on that link should not even be sold.
Where is the World Editor?
The rendering of the terrain is terrible.
#58
The 3D editor is included with the download for TorqueX. TorqueX is an XNA-based engine and a completely different beast and structure that Torque 3D. Contact me and I'll work through your mistaken purchase.
11/01/2009 (4:23 pm)
@r2d2The 3D editor is included with the download for TorqueX. TorqueX is an XNA-based engine and a completely different beast and structure that Torque 3D. Contact me and I'll work through your mistaken purchase.
#60
11/01/2009 (4:55 pm)
Sorry! My e-mail's in my profile. It's davidb at torquepowered dot com. 
Torque 3D Owner Steve
YP productions