Repulsive goal
by BusError · in ThinkTanks · 04/30/2003 (12:15 am) · 17 replies
What about making the goal slightly repulsive? at the moment in Scrub games the tendency is for slower tanks to just wait IN the goal to bump the player who made all the hard work and 'steal' his point.
With a slightly repultive goal area, it would prevent anyone from actualy being stationary in the green thingy, and give more of a fighting chance to the player who does the hard work of bringing the flag.
So many time do I see DEMO(some stupid name) in the green goal it's not even funny.
With a slightly repultive goal area, it would prevent anyone from actualy being stationary in the green thingy, and give more of a fighting chance to the player who does the hard work of bringing the flag.
So many time do I see DEMO(some stupid name) in the green goal it's not even funny.
About the author
#2
Demo players cannot join this map, so it should be retail users only.
Hopefully your team-mates will clear a path to the goal..
So here is what we were thinking.
We decided not to do normal Capture the Flag becuase of goal camping. The moving goal makes it less of a problem, but it will never eliminate it.
Here are some stratgies that you can try:
Damage, but don't destroy, everyone you see. If they go to camp, they are easy to take out. Nothing better than seeing a gaggle of smoking campers lose their heads right before scoring.
Drive around until you can pick up the area effect powerup and hold onto it until you have the ball (don't shoot), get the ball , go to the goal, and then nuke the campers.
Go suicidal. If you go to a goal and it is camped, jump off a cliff with the ball. You will respawn, as will the ball and goal. It forces the campers to move, and if you are quick (in a light tank) you shouldbe able to beat them to the goal.
Get the bots to follow you and circle the goal. Get the campers caught in the crossfire(let the bots shoot 'em) and then take 'em out and score.
Be a vulture and let someone else carry the ball. Follow them, and when the campers take them out, take the ball and score.
Be courteous to others and ram campers out of the goal when you see them camping. Sometime s you give away a goal, but it is a good thing to do once in a while (especially after you have just vultured someone).
No matter what, there will be campers (even if you put in litle things to stop it). But, if you can developer good strategies, it is even more gratifying when you score. We will think about what we can do to help lessen the problem.
04/30/2003 (1:16 am)
Okay, I just put up a team scrum server. (Freudian Flats on PokeMalo's Playhouse).Demo players cannot join this map, so it should be retail users only.
Hopefully your team-mates will clear a path to the goal..
So here is what we were thinking.
We decided not to do normal Capture the Flag becuase of goal camping. The moving goal makes it less of a problem, but it will never eliminate it.
Here are some stratgies that you can try:
Damage, but don't destroy, everyone you see. If they go to camp, they are easy to take out. Nothing better than seeing a gaggle of smoking campers lose their heads right before scoring.
Drive around until you can pick up the area effect powerup and hold onto it until you have the ball (don't shoot), get the ball , go to the goal, and then nuke the campers.
Go suicidal. If you go to a goal and it is camped, jump off a cliff with the ball. You will respawn, as will the ball and goal. It forces the campers to move, and if you are quick (in a light tank) you shouldbe able to beat them to the goal.
Get the bots to follow you and circle the goal. Get the campers caught in the crossfire(let the bots shoot 'em) and then take 'em out and score.
Be a vulture and let someone else carry the ball. Follow them, and when the campers take them out, take the ball and score.
Be courteous to others and ram campers out of the goal when you see them camping. Sometime s you give away a goal, but it is a good thing to do once in a while (especially after you have just vultured someone).
No matter what, there will be campers (even if you put in litle things to stop it). But, if you can developer good strategies, it is even more gratifying when you score. We will think about what we can do to help lessen the problem.
#3
In other words, if you're not good enough to outwit a goal-camper, don't complain. Modding a game to thwart particular strategies is counter-productive. Consider that one person's "correction of abuse" is another person's "nerf".
IMHO.
04/30/2003 (5:49 am)
I think, Joe, that your suggested counter-strategies merely serve to point out that goal-camping is a valid strategy with which players must cope. It's all part of the inevitable arms race that makes a multiplayer game fun.In other words, if you're not good enough to outwit a goal-camper, don't complain. Modding a game to thwart particular strategies is counter-productive. Consider that one person's "correction of abuse" is another person's "nerf".
IMHO.
#4
Goal camping is going to happen, no matter what. If we put something in the game to stop it, people will find a way around it, and then it just becomes an arms race to tweak the gameplay as newer strategies emerge.
The best way, in my opinion, is to just find ways to make the goal camping strategy less effective by developing counter strategies. The best thing about online games is that a bunch of different 'winning' strategies emerge, and people will use the winning strategies.
As the game evolves and people get better at ThinkTanks, we hope that some intersting and complex winning stratgies will emerge.
If the goal camping becomes such an insurrmountable problem that no one want to play scrum, we will do 'something' to make it better.
We want to wait a few weeks and see what sort of counter strategies emerge so that if we do alter the gameplay, we alter it in a way that does not amek the problem worse, and re-inforces 'fun' winning strategies.
04/30/2003 (9:04 am)
Yes, Goal camping is going to happen, no matter what. If we put something in the game to stop it, people will find a way around it, and then it just becomes an arms race to tweak the gameplay as newer strategies emerge.
The best way, in my opinion, is to just find ways to make the goal camping strategy less effective by developing counter strategies. The best thing about online games is that a bunch of different 'winning' strategies emerge, and people will use the winning strategies.
As the game evolves and people get better at ThinkTanks, we hope that some intersting and complex winning stratgies will emerge.
If the goal camping becomes such an insurrmountable problem that no one want to play scrum, we will do 'something' to make it better.
We want to wait a few weeks and see what sort of counter strategies emerge so that if we do alter the gameplay, we alter it in a way that does not amek the problem worse, and re-inforces 'fun' winning strategies.
#5
I scored 4 goals the winner in a light tank scored 6. I believe a couple other people were close with 3.
The strategy was not so effective. In fact, one of my goals was a long distance goal. I blew a couple other long distance goal opportunities by not being aware enough (I was rushing toward the goal while between the carrier and the goal, and was not aware enough to turn and pick off the carrier in time).
I found that people were already adjusting to the goal camping strategy. Basically what happens is that 2-3 people use that strategy on any given turn, largely based on how good of a jump they get on the ball in the first place. These people end up battling it out for control of the goal. Often times, the carrier sneaks in as this battle is going on. Hapeened most of the time in fact.
What I'm really interested in seeing is what happens when people start to play Team Scrum effectively as teams. Heavy tanks will have a definite defensive role in that game. I'd love to see people organize a Team Scrum league to help foster the development of game play styles.
04/30/2003 (9:37 am)
Ok, just played a round of Scrum as a heavy with the typical goal camping strategy (I was Shark if you happened to be one of the 8 or so people in the server at the time).I scored 4 goals the winner in a light tank scored 6. I believe a couple other people were close with 3.
The strategy was not so effective. In fact, one of my goals was a long distance goal. I blew a couple other long distance goal opportunities by not being aware enough (I was rushing toward the goal while between the carrier and the goal, and was not aware enough to turn and pick off the carrier in time).
I found that people were already adjusting to the goal camping strategy. Basically what happens is that 2-3 people use that strategy on any given turn, largely based on how good of a jump they get on the ball in the first place. These people end up battling it out for control of the goal. Often times, the carrier sneaks in as this battle is going on. Hapeened most of the time in fact.
What I'm really interested in seeing is what happens when people start to play Team Scrum effectively as teams. Heavy tanks will have a definite defensive role in that game. I'd love to see people organize a Team Scrum league to help foster the development of game play styles.
#6
I used to run a CS server and camping was the most complained about tactic. Their were mods etc to thwart camping, but it was a never ending battle. I found that 9 times out of 10 those who were camping had either 1) no clue how to play 2) no skills to play the game 3) were hackers trying to spoil a decent game.
If you cant handle the campers then yah need to stick to single player games ;) it is just a fact of life, twits will camp because they can and get a kick out of seeing others getting p-oed because of it...
-Ron
04/30/2003 (10:19 am)
"camping" can be seen in almost every online game. I used to run a CS server and camping was the most complained about tactic. Their were mods etc to thwart camping, but it was a never ending battle. I found that 9 times out of 10 those who were camping had either 1) no clue how to play 2) no skills to play the game 3) were hackers trying to spoil a decent game.
If you cant handle the campers then yah need to stick to single player games ;) it is just a fact of life, twits will camp because they can and get a kick out of seeing others getting p-oed because of it...
-Ron
#7
04/30/2003 (11:02 am)
Oh man... everyone developing startegies without me! darn vacation... grumble...
#8
Joe
04/30/2003 (11:12 am)
Welcome back Dan. There are some people out there that are already very, very good. You will have your work cut out for you.Joe
#9
In my experience, what's usually called 'camping' in CS is just sour grapes directed a superior tactics. When running a defense (T on H and VIP maps, CT on bomb maps) it just makes sense to (so-called) 'camp'. Running headlong into the offense isn't a recipe for success.
Now, a T at the top of the ramp on dust with the bomb and an AWP-- that's camping. The only way to cope is to run the clock out. Unfortunately, on public servers, your teammates tend to be of the 'Deathmatch forever!' variety and won't wait that long...
04/30/2003 (11:12 am)
Huh. My post was accepted but disappeared. Well, at the risk of a double-post, I'll recreate it:In my experience, what's usually called 'camping' in CS is just sour grapes directed a superior tactics. When running a defense (T on H and VIP maps, CT on bomb maps) it just makes sense to (so-called) 'camp'. Running headlong into the offense isn't a recipe for success.
Now, a T at the top of the ramp on dust with the bomb and an AWP-- that's camping. The only way to cope is to run the clock out. Unfortunately, on public servers, your teammates tend to be of the 'Deathmatch forever!' variety and won't wait that long...
#10
Only in the solo game you see regularly 2 places of actions:
1) the action around the flag; and if there are many tanks sometime it doesn't move at all ;-)
2) the action around the goal, were people bash each others for the green spot !
Also sometime you have the couple of DEMO() who are persuaded they are in a battle game :>
zoom!
04/30/2003 (11:17 am)
Actualy we had a few very untertaining Team games today. The teams really worked well, cleaning up the path, making a physical shield around the goal or physicaly bouncing out pursuers.Only in the solo game you see regularly 2 places of actions:
1) the action around the flag; and if there are many tanks sometime it doesn't move at all ;-)
2) the action around the goal, were people bash each others for the green spot !
Also sometime you have the couple of DEMO() who are persuaded they are in a battle game :>
zoom!
#11
04/30/2003 (6:07 pm)
Not sure that the camping is really that much of a worry. at least for me in anycase. I have a few tactics that I use that tends to deal with that and one is learning to canon off a few local area bombs in mid flight. second is learning how to manover your tank and run in unpredictable paths back to goal. I am finding the tactics I use with the Light tank are giving me a score that leaves a lot of people trailing.
#12
05/02/2003 (1:33 pm)
especially with the randomly appearing goal, camping isn't much of a problem. if i'm dying and someone is chilling in the green zone, off a cliff i go, and everyone's a loser :)
#13
When you are within 5 feet of the goal, you are halfway there! ;)
I want to add in here that team scrum rocks! We were wondering how long it would take for everyone to start playing as a 'team', and I was pleasantly surpirsed tht it happened very quickly. Many players have already figured out how to do handoffs.
As we get more players, we wil try to facilitate some scheduled 'team' games.
05/03/2003 (10:55 am)
I have been playinga bunch of scrum the last few days and I did not really see any problem with goal camping. Yes, it is madness around the ball and the goal, but that is part of scrum, and I did not see any big problem with it making people not enjoy the game. When you are within 5 feet of the goal, you are halfway there! ;)
I want to add in here that team scrum rocks! We were wondering how long it would take for everyone to start playing as a 'team', and I was pleasantly surpirsed tht it happened very quickly. Many players have already figured out how to do handoffs.
As we get more players, we wil try to facilitate some scheduled 'team' games.
#14
09/16/2003 (6:42 pm)
How about some rooms that allow goal camping, and others with a little mist around the goal...
#15
09/16/2003 (8:56 pm)
Dude, this thread has been dead for 4 months plus. its good that you're reading up on things, but don't dredge up things like this unless you have something on the revolutionary side to add. 
Dizzle
I've already received negative feedback from other players because i'm busting my ass to play a good game and they're just lounging about waiting for me to show up with the flag.. NO GOOD!