Out of date documentation, dead links, etc - what's up GarageGames?
by Neil Sainsbury · in Torque Game Builder · 10/14/2009 (3:26 am) · 12 replies
Just started out with TGB and have been going through the documentation - wow is it a mess.
I first got a sense everything wasn't well when I downloaded the TGB official offline docs from my account, only to find that they're actually different from the docs you get shown if you access the docs via the start menu (Start -> Programs -> Torque Game Builder -> Documentation Overview). And even more confusing, the documentation available from http://docs.garagegames.com/tgb/official/ is different as well.
So, as a first time user you get confronted with 3 complete sets of documentation - each of them looking official - with varying levels of outdatedness...Classy...
Walking through even the most current documentation (http://docs.garagegames.com/tgb/official/) tutorials, etc. it immediately becomes clear nobody has actually reviewed them to verify they work in a really long time. Many of the screenshots are out of date, there are incorrect instructions everywhere, and tons of stuff that just flat out doesn't work. Lots of grammar and spelling errors too.
And did I mention the dead-links everywhere? Oh man. Heck, even go to http://docs.garagegames.com/tgb/official/ and now click some of the links up the top like "TGB Online Docs". Dead. "Other Engine Documentation". Dead.
And it's not just stuff hidden that only developers can't see where broken links can be found - they're absolutely rife on the main pages intended to sell this product to customers. Head to http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque-2d and then click on the "Documentation" tab. Two of the three links are dead.
I don't expect hand holding everywhere, but it would most definitely be nice for someone to take some actual care with this stuff. I'm just starting out trying to learn this stuff and the horrible documentation is not a good first impression at all.
I first got a sense everything wasn't well when I downloaded the TGB official offline docs from my account, only to find that they're actually different from the docs you get shown if you access the docs via the start menu (Start -> Programs -> Torque Game Builder -> Documentation Overview). And even more confusing, the documentation available from http://docs.garagegames.com/tgb/official/ is different as well.
So, as a first time user you get confronted with 3 complete sets of documentation - each of them looking official - with varying levels of outdatedness...Classy...
Walking through even the most current documentation (http://docs.garagegames.com/tgb/official/) tutorials, etc. it immediately becomes clear nobody has actually reviewed them to verify they work in a really long time. Many of the screenshots are out of date, there are incorrect instructions everywhere, and tons of stuff that just flat out doesn't work. Lots of grammar and spelling errors too.
And did I mention the dead-links everywhere? Oh man. Heck, even go to http://docs.garagegames.com/tgb/official/ and now click some of the links up the top like "TGB Online Docs". Dead. "Other Engine Documentation". Dead.
And it's not just stuff hidden that only developers can't see where broken links can be found - they're absolutely rife on the main pages intended to sell this product to customers. Head to http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque-2d and then click on the "Documentation" tab. Two of the three links are dead.
I don't expect hand holding everywhere, but it would most definitely be nice for someone to take some actual care with this stuff. I'm just starting out trying to learn this stuff and the horrible documentation is not a good first impression at all.
#2
10/26/2009 (1:22 am)
Michael it's clearly not your fault since your working on what your told to work I am sure. But you are not solely responsible for GG your bosses need to put more people to work on the issue rather than just leave paying customers wondering what the F for the umpteenth time. That is just poor customer service. And companies that stand still while their customers aren't satisfied don't last.
#3
I think GG decided they were sick of complaints about docs, so they stuck Michael into a job that several people should be doing. I Think Mich is a great guy and he works his ass off. He's an effective Pillsb*ry doughboy as he calms situations with reason and logic, he does more than what people expect from him and he's literally everyone's friend..he is essentially 1 man with 7 jobs yet 1 working title. GG should step it up a notch and at least get Mich an intern or 2. ..I seriously hope he doesn't get burned out and become cynical like me. I know he'll think twice about how hard he works now that I have said that! lol.
- Good luck on obtaining what you need guys.
10/26/2009 (2:04 am)
Read through before you jump to an opinion..as I am not a fanboi-person. ;)I think GG decided they were sick of complaints about docs, so they stuck Michael into a job that several people should be doing. I Think Mich is a great guy and he works his ass off. He's an effective Pillsb*ry doughboy as he calms situations with reason and logic, he does more than what people expect from him and he's literally everyone's friend..he is essentially 1 man with 7 jobs yet 1 working title. GG should step it up a notch and at least get Mich an intern or 2. ..I seriously hope he doesn't get burned out and become cynical like me. I know he'll think twice about how hard he works now that I have said that! lol.
- Good luck on obtaining what you need guys.
#4
It would be nice to have a better doc and even though Michael is doing a great job, it's just impossible for a single man to handle the whole doc of GG.
10/26/2009 (6:37 am)
I can only second Eb's opinion...It would be nice to have a better doc and even though Michael is doing a great job, it's just impossible for a single man to handle the whole doc of GG.
#5
10/26/2009 (9:09 am)
I read that Mich has slaves of his own now, and even got offers from various people who want to write documentation/tutorials. I hope this means more docs for ALL the engines :)
#6
TGB documentation is a lost cause with T2D around the corner, so I'd really like to see T2D not only have up to date documentation, but use a writing style that talks to the readers like they're a 10 year old, not a seasoned programmer.
In short: Buying TGB and trying to make a game with it is like buying Adobe Flash and trying the same thing but without Adobe's strong community and well refined documentation. It's just not going to happen for most people. The sad thing is TGB is about as useful and powerful as flash, but the normal user can't utilize that.
10/26/2009 (9:28 am)
I don't think anyone complaining about the completely lacking Torque documentation is targeting one person specifically. They're mostly, and right to be so, pissed that they were advertised that TGB is very easy to get into, which is obviously not nearly the case. And this is due mostly to the fact that every aspect of the editor (from the level design tools, to the particle effects, to the gui creator, to the scripting language) are unique to Garage Game's product, but have almost no documentation or tutorials. It's also often mentioned as a beginner developer's toolset, but you have to already have a very solid foundation of C++ to even get started with understanding anything. Not to mention to even do something as simple as changing the launch icon for a game requires you to know how to read, write, and compile C++ code.TGB documentation is a lost cause with T2D around the corner, so I'd really like to see T2D not only have up to date documentation, but use a writing style that talks to the readers like they're a 10 year old, not a seasoned programmer.
In short: Buying TGB and trying to make a game with it is like buying Adobe Flash and trying the same thing but without Adobe's strong community and well refined documentation. It's just not going to happen for most people. The sad thing is TGB is about as useful and powerful as flash, but the normal user can't utilize that.
#7
Welcome to the undocumented TGB's world, the game maker (pardon the word...XD) which you don't need to code a lot (ha!). My advice is that pray to your gods for patience and for a helmet to avoid serious injuries when you hit your head to the table, the walls or something similar, because you've got another thing coming if you think you will find answers in the TDN's temple of wisdom... arf!
To ask in forums is a (¿the?) way to learn (damn! in the forums is where I learned what the heck were and how work the sceneGraph and the sceneWindow -thanks William!) but the forums are NOT what I consider a good documentation.
Another way that I tried was the book "Game Programmers Guide to Torque" but nowadays it's eating dust somewhere in home.
I got my base of knowledges about this tool/engine thanks to this link:
http://rakeingrass.com/
(I would like to take this opportunity to send to RakeInGrass' people my kindest regards)
In their blog you can download the source code of their games. I hope it helps you as it helped me.
And that's all. I wish you good luck.
Pray for your souls and take a crucifix... T2D is coming...
PS.-Talking with a friend about T2D we were wondering what will the slogan be this time: T2D's about to make you his newbi(e)tch? :P
10/30/2009 (3:52 am)
Hi Neil!Welcome to the undocumented TGB's world, the game maker (pardon the word...XD) which you don't need to code a lot (ha!). My advice is that pray to your gods for patience and for a helmet to avoid serious injuries when you hit your head to the table, the walls or something similar, because you've got another thing coming if you think you will find answers in the TDN's temple of wisdom... arf!
To ask in forums is a (¿the?) way to learn (damn! in the forums is where I learned what the heck were and how work the sceneGraph and the sceneWindow -thanks William!) but the forums are NOT what I consider a good documentation.
Another way that I tried was the book "Game Programmers Guide to Torque" but nowadays it's eating dust somewhere in home.
I got my base of knowledges about this tool/engine thanks to this link:
http://rakeingrass.com/
(I would like to take this opportunity to send to RakeInGrass' people my kindest regards)
In their blog you can download the source code of their games. I hope it helps you as it helped me.
And that's all. I wish you good luck.
Pray for your souls and take a crucifix... T2D is coming...
PS.-Talking with a friend about T2D we were wondering what will the slogan be this time: T2D's about to make you his newbi(e)tch? :P
#8
I've been sneaking peeks at other engines recently and have been surprised at the examples they provide. Almost every aspect of the engines are covered, and I feel like I know what I'd need to do to make a game just from the documentation.
I feel fortunate that I can just look through the code and understand what's going on. I feel like I should share my knowledge in TDN, but TDN feels ignored and I worry that it might go away. Plus, the knowledge may be worthless in a few months with a new engine. It doesn't motivate me to be more helpful.
P.S. I love the word "newbi(e)tch"! T3D makes me feel like that!
10/30/2009 (5:54 am)
You are welcome, Oriol!I've been sneaking peeks at other engines recently and have been surprised at the examples they provide. Almost every aspect of the engines are covered, and I feel like I know what I'd need to do to make a game just from the documentation.
I feel fortunate that I can just look through the code and understand what's going on. I feel like I should share my knowledge in TDN, but TDN feels ignored and I worry that it might go away. Plus, the knowledge may be worthless in a few months with a new engine. It doesn't motivate me to be more helpful.
P.S. I love the word "newbi(e)tch"! T3D makes me feel like that!
#9
Only to see nothing has changed. :(
What a pity it is.
10/30/2009 (9:45 pm)
I cam back today to check on a world which I haven't been involved with in over two years...Only to see nothing has changed. :(
What a pity it is.
#11
And also have plenty of game kits and Tutorials to get started, and then I'll bet there would be much much more projects completed or put out on the market using TGB then we've ever seen before.
How about a book on TGB Scripting for dummies or something like that.
@Neil
All in all TGB is the coolest engine to work with. Over the last few years developers have had pretty good success with challenges of coarse from what I've seen thus far. With this engine, you can really make your games look polished, and pretty dang good.
11/01/2009 (10:31 pm)
It took me two years while working with TGB to really grasp the concepts of programming in general. Hopefully in the new T2d documentation, it would be broken down into level where a baby(newbie) can understand it.And also have plenty of game kits and Tutorials to get started, and then I'll bet there would be much much more projects completed or put out on the market using TGB then we've ever seen before.
How about a book on TGB Scripting for dummies or something like that.
@Neil
All in all TGB is the coolest engine to work with. Over the last few years developers have had pretty good success with challenges of coarse from what I've seen thus far. With this engine, you can really make your games look polished, and pretty dang good.
#12
1) most tutorials tell you the general use of the script they are giving to you without more details. It could be better for us newbies to know where we are going beforehand (in more details than: "we will set up the script for the player"), and what is precisely the script for. This command is used to do that action. We will need that value so we retrieve and store it in a variable in that way. Things like that.
2) a single comprehensive reference manual. We actually have a TGB Reference Guide, a T2D Reference Guide (from the old version, not the upcoming one) which contains outdated but not-to-be-found-elsewhere informations, a TorqueScript Overview and a TorqueScript Quick Reference, all of these in the tutorials section. I would personnally find it better to have a single TGB Reference manual, which would cover every function available. I was suprised that I couldn't find anything about the XML command, for example. Maybe I didn't look in the right place, but if that is the case, the information is a little bit too tedious to find...
I don't want to sound like an ol' grumpy one. It's just that this part could (and should) be better in my opinion.
I however wouldn't mind if it stays that way for TGB, as long as it is better in T2D.
11/02/2009 (5:59 am)
There is two things I regret in TGB documentation I have to say :1) most tutorials tell you the general use of the script they are giving to you without more details. It could be better for us newbies to know where we are going beforehand (in more details than: "we will set up the script for the player"), and what is precisely the script for. This command is used to do that action. We will need that value so we retrieve and store it in a variable in that way. Things like that.
2) a single comprehensive reference manual. We actually have a TGB Reference Guide, a T2D Reference Guide (from the old version, not the upcoming one) which contains outdated but not-to-be-found-elsewhere informations, a TorqueScript Overview and a TorqueScript Quick Reference, all of these in the tutorials section. I would personnally find it better to have a single TGB Reference manual, which would cover every function available. I was suprised that I couldn't find anything about the XML command, for example. Maybe I didn't look in the right place, but if that is the case, the information is a little bit too tedious to find...
I don't want to sound like an ol' grumpy one. It's just that this part could (and should) be better in my opinion.
I however wouldn't mind if it stays that way for TGB, as long as it is better in T2D.
Employee Michael Perry
ZombieShortbus
If I am able to catch a break and have spare time, I will try to go back through and update the other engine documentation.