TGB EULA and Publishers
by Bruno Campolo · in Torque Game Builder · 10/11/2009 (9:33 am) · 31 replies
Hi can someone from GG answer the following question:
If I have the indie license of TGB it says in the EULA that I need to have a TGB splash screen and provide a link in the credits. The splash screen is not an issue, but the problem is that most publisher's contracts state that they do not allow links (hot or cold in some cases) that do not refer to the publisher's site. If this is the case then is the 'indie' license not publisher fiendly?
Is there another optional way to list GG in the credits that would meet both parties terms? or do I have to pay the 'extra fee' mentioned in the EULA? If so, what is this fee?
Thanks.
If I have the indie license of TGB it says in the EULA that I need to have a TGB splash screen and provide a link in the credits. The splash screen is not an issue, but the problem is that most publisher's contracts state that they do not allow links (hot or cold in some cases) that do not refer to the publisher's site. If this is the case then is the 'indie' license not publisher fiendly?
Is there another optional way to list GG in the credits that would meet both parties terms? or do I have to pay the 'extra fee' mentioned in the EULA? If so, what is this fee?
Thanks.
About the author
Creator of Bantam City Games, a one-man independent game development studio. To learn more, check out 'A Game Developer's Saga', a game development blog at: http://www.bantamcity.com/blog
#22
10/15/2009 (5:11 pm)
EDIT: I'll reply in the indiegamer forums and clarify with what you have stated above. 
#23
10/15/2009 (10:51 pm)
Thanks Davey and David, I'm happy with that ;) 
#24
developer-help.es.oberon-media.com/index.php/Oberon_Downloadable_Games_Certifica...
See the "1.42 Branding/URL" It says: checks: Game shouldn't contain any links. There are some exceptions, however a hot/cold www.garagegames.com link in the credits will fail this check 100%.
See this talk from Russel Carrol from Sep. 2007: www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/09/independent_games_summit_russell.php
He is the head of marketing at Reflexive. He explains in Sep 2007, how they "stole" traffic with their game Ricochet Lost Worlds, released in April 2004, circumventing the "no link" policy already in place. (min. 15:00 of the video linked above)
A strict "no link" portal policy has been here for years on ALL major portals.
I would like to hear from one casual game portal listed in your marketing material (portal icons listed, when you click "publish casual games" on TGB main site), where a submission containing a hot or cold www.garagegames.com link will not automatically fail.
10/16/2009 (6:32 am)
@David Montgomery-Blake: considering the "no links" portal policy: see the internal submission guidelines for e.g. Oberon downloadable games. developer-help.es.oberon-media.com/index.php/Oberon_Downloadable_Games_Certifica...
See the "1.42 Branding/URL" It says: checks: Game shouldn't contain any links. There are some exceptions, however a hot/cold www.garagegames.com link in the credits will fail this check 100%.
See this talk from Russel Carrol from Sep. 2007: www.gamesetwatch.com/2007/09/independent_games_summit_russell.php
He is the head of marketing at Reflexive. He explains in Sep 2007, how they "stole" traffic with their game Ricochet Lost Worlds, released in April 2004, circumventing the "no link" policy already in place. (min. 15:00 of the video linked above)
A strict "no link" portal policy has been here for years on ALL major portals.
I would like to hear from one casual game portal listed in your marketing material (portal icons listed, when you click "publish casual games" on TGB main site), where a submission containing a hot or cold www.garagegames.com link will not automatically fail.
#25
1) TGB main page www.garagegames.com/products/torque-2d, defaults to a "buy an indie license", boldly proclaiming "publish casual games" "...on every major portal". This is simply NOT true: you can NOT publish a game on every major portal with this license.
2) indie EULA 4.(c) still says: if you want to waive the link requirement, "contact licensing". It doesn't say: "buy a commercial license."
Voila, how indies end up in private negotiations, how much they have to pay to waive the link requirement, to be actually able to publish THEIR game on portals as advertised.
Come on indies, are you really happy with that?
10/16/2009 (6:38 am)
The bottom line is: 1) TGB main page www.garagegames.com/products/torque-2d, defaults to a "buy an indie license", boldly proclaiming "publish casual games" "...on every major portal". This is simply NOT true: you can NOT publish a game on every major portal with this license.
2) indie EULA 4.(c) still says: if you want to waive the link requirement, "contact licensing". It doesn't say: "buy a commercial license."
Voila, how indies end up in private negotiations, how much they have to pay to waive the link requirement, to be actually able to publish THEIR game on portals as advertised.
Come on indies, are you really happy with that?
#26
10/16/2009 (7:49 am)
Quote:1) TGB main page http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque-2d, defaults to a "buy an indie license", boldly proclaiming "publish casual games" "...on every major portal". This is simply NOT true: you can NOT publish a game on every major portal with this license.I can't see where it says that you can publish a TGB game on every major portal with the Indie licence. Do you have a link?
Quote:2) indie EULA 4.(c) still says: if you want to waive the link requirement, "contact licensing". It doesn't say: "buy a commercial license."Contact licensing and they will tell you to purchase a commercial license. Which is also what Davey explained.
Quote:Come on indies, are you really happy with that?Yup.
#27
I did contact them and I certainly wasn't told to buy the commercial license. I was told the price for changing the EULA is around $10.000 and that they are willing to negotiate a precise fee for my blue indie eyes. Had to work it out by my-self, that the commercial EULA doesn't require the link. Only after mentioning that, ten mails later from my initial question, did I receive an abrupt one line mail confirming that buying the commercial license is enough.
Half the people CAN'T spot the difference between the indie and commercial EULAs even if you direct them toward it.
All the cases I hear about are about being asked to pay $3-5.000. That's what happen to the original poster of this GG thread days ago. See forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=18608
10/16/2009 (8:34 am)
Quote:I can't see where it says that you can publish a TGB game on every major portal with the Indie license. Do you have a link?www.garagegames.com/products/torque-2d, click "publish casual games".
Quote:Contact licensing and they will tell you to purchase a commercial license.Did you, personally, contact licensing in this matter? Still, I'm glad you mention it, as this is exactly my point. They should do what you say, but they don't.
I did contact them and I certainly wasn't told to buy the commercial license. I was told the price for changing the EULA is around $10.000 and that they are willing to negotiate a precise fee for my blue indie eyes. Had to work it out by my-self, that the commercial EULA doesn't require the link. Only after mentioning that, ten mails later from my initial question, did I receive an abrupt one line mail confirming that buying the commercial license is enough.
Half the people CAN'T spot the difference between the indie and commercial EULAs even if you direct them toward it.
All the cases I hear about are about being asked to pay $3-5.000. That's what happen to the original poster of this GG thread days ago. See forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=18608
Quote:BantamCityGames writes: I received an email response from the licensing department at garage games and they told me that in some cases, depending on the game and the publisher, they would be willing to allow a cold link to be placed in the credits instead of a hot link. In the even that this is not acceptable the PER-TITLE waiver is $3000USD. Ouch! Did they forget to put in the decimal?
Quote:Shaz writes: That's less than the figure I was given a year agoTo give an example from GG community, that's what happened a year ago to the author of the 'You must pay $5000 for every casual game' www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/79954
#28
You DO NOT have to pay $3000 to Remove the links in a game.
You DO NOT have to pay $5000 to publish a title with TGB (Commercial or Indie).
That would be the end of the thread IMO, however, you are also WRONG that all portals require all links (Hot and cold) to be removed prior to publishing. Most of them state this as their preference for submissions, and none of them are publicly going to confirm their policy being to the contrary. But I'm one of the people who maintains publisher and portal relationships with Reflexive, Big Fish, Real, MSGS ect. In my experience only a half-dozen or so titles have had this this be a blocker for them and in each case we worked through it civilly and amicably.
I've acknowledged you in the places where you are accurate. But now you're throwing stones at nothing. Let it go.
@ Joe & Bruno-- Thank you and please forgive my clumsy resolution on this. We've been getting a number of Splash Screen waiver requests recently from various parties. Splash screen removal is a parallel issue which I cross pollinated here. Thank you for your patience.
10/16/2009 (4:40 pm)
@Andrej- Easy off the gasoline buddy, you're arguing a non-issue at this point. I don't think we could be any clearer in our policy that what I said in my last post and is stated in our EULA. You're digging up old information at this point to garner attention and start a fight where there isn't one.You DO NOT have to pay $3000 to Remove the links in a game.
You DO NOT have to pay $5000 to publish a title with TGB (Commercial or Indie).
That would be the end of the thread IMO, however, you are also WRONG that all portals require all links (Hot and cold) to be removed prior to publishing. Most of them state this as their preference for submissions, and none of them are publicly going to confirm their policy being to the contrary. But I'm one of the people who maintains publisher and portal relationships with Reflexive, Big Fish, Real, MSGS ect. In my experience only a half-dozen or so titles have had this this be a blocker for them and in each case we worked through it civilly and amicably.
I've acknowledged you in the places where you are accurate. But now you're throwing stones at nothing. Let it go.
@ Joe & Bruno-- Thank you and please forgive my clumsy resolution on this. We've been getting a number of Splash Screen waiver requests recently from various parties. Splash screen removal is a parallel issue which I cross pollinated here. Thank you for your patience.
#29
Now it seems that as I'm looking to come back to TGB, I'll either need to use this really old version, or display a splash screen and include an about box if I want to run the latest version.
Can I have a refund on my Commercial Pro upgrade fee please?
10/21/2009 (7:15 pm)
I haven't been around here for a couple of years (the current download version of TGB I have on my HDD is 1.1.3!), but the EULA for the Commercial Pro license I have makes no mention of splash screens, links or credit boxes, and it was the primary reason that I stumped up the extra cash for that particular license.Now it seems that as I'm looking to come back to TGB, I'll either need to use this really old version, or display a splash screen and include an about box if I want to run the latest version.
Can I have a refund on my Commercial Pro upgrade fee please?
#30
10/21/2009 (8:51 pm)
We cannot provide refunds on source products; especially if they were purchased three years ago.
#31
Previously the license did not prevent developers from creating non-game products. Now it does.
Previously the license did not require developers to display splash screens and links. Now it does.
Aside from the licensing section that deals with income, there is no difference between the versions. The Indie and Commercial versions are functionaly the same, and also have the same limitations of use.
This isn't the first time the EULA has undergone major revisions and your customers are left a little frustrated: here and here. Saying 'The EULA was available before you purchased the product' doesn't cut it when the EULA gets changed after purchase, and the first you know about it is during the install screen.
10/22/2009 (5:32 am)
It wasn't really a serious request :) More serious is the fact that the EULA has changed so drastically from when I purchased the product.Previously the license did not prevent developers from creating non-game products. Now it does.
Previously the license did not require developers to display splash screens and links. Now it does.
Aside from the licensing section that deals with income, there is no difference between the versions. The Indie and Commercial versions are functionaly the same, and also have the same limitations of use.
This isn't the first time the EULA has undergone major revisions and your customers are left a little frustrated: here and here. Saying 'The EULA was available before you purchased the product' doesn't cut it when the EULA gets changed after purchase, and the first you know about it is during the install screen.
#32
It is standard practice for licenses to change over a product lifecycle. As is also standard, though, you are only bound to the licenses you choose for the products that they apply to. While I'm not sure about the specifics on T2D's license for the next version, I am hoping it is closer to Torque 3D's model. This would allow for game and non-game use, though I rarely have anyone asking about non-game use in TGB. I get a lot of questions from the simulation/serious games sector about 3D engine licensing.
10/22/2009 (10:09 am)
I didn't think so. I was just trying to nip the "me too" posts in the bud. :)It is standard practice for licenses to change over a product lifecycle. As is also standard, though, you are only bound to the licenses you choose for the products that they apply to. While I'm not sure about the specifics on T2D's license for the next version, I am hoping it is closer to Torque 3D's model. This would allow for game and non-game use, though I rarely have anyone asking about non-game use in TGB. I get a lot of questions from the simulation/serious games sector about 3D engine licensing.
Torque Owner Bruno Campolo
Thank you for taking the time to research and clarify our concerns and misconceptions.