TGB EULA and Publishers

#1 I think you would have better luck with an answer if you mailed GG directly. "Company->Contact"

Please update this thread when you get an answer from GG.

#2 We deal with these inquiries on a per-project basis depending on the portal and its requirements. Since portal requirements are different per-portal, we do not have a blanket answer. Contact us and let us know which portal is evaluating your product and the requirements and we'll work it out.

#3 I'm going to also have to do this at some point, as are a lot of others I'm sure. It'd be nice to have some kind of idea what to expect especially in terms of the extra fees. I'm not really sure why it has to be this hidden cost when basically every portal in existence will require you to remove the in game links to garagegames website.

#4 I did ask my question in email form as well (directed to licensing@garagegames.com as suggested by the EULA), but no response yet. I agree with Joe... why deal with every individual on a per user / per publisher basis? This sounds like a lot of support overhead. Why not just publish a clearly stated set of rules on the subject and if there is a fee, post what the fee is and maybe even provide a mechanism to pay that fee online. If a specific publisher doesn't mind the link to garagegames.com then I would gladly put one in because I fully support the use of TGB and other Torque products in games, but most online publishers are pretty strict about this (BFG, Reflexive, Real Arcade).

#5 Hi Bruno, Joe and others:

In our experience each portal is different with their requirements, some are more stringent than others. Usually this "requirement" will be waived if you pass the cost of splash screen waiver on to the publisher or portal directly. Depending on the portal, they may remove the requirement, GarageGames may have an agreement with that portal directly, or we may have an agreement with the publisher. There is not a "blanket case" and although some portals present their submission preferences this way frequently there is flexibility in their policy.

For custom agreements outside of our standard EULA, such as splash screens and console licensing, we reserve privacy in our pricing discussions to consider additional factors which may or may not affect most users.

For additional questions you can contact me directly or contact licensing@garagegames.com

#6 This has been an ongoing problem in publishing TGB games on casual portals.

See this thread from one year ago: 'You must pay $5000 for every casual game' www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/79954
The thread has been locked down, as it, according to GG, "serves no purpose".

Nothing changed since then. GG sells indie friendly priced licenses to masses, and harvest extra money from those who actually succeed in finishing a game and end up in the "perfect" spot for negotiation. Just one step from going on portals? Oh, we will waive the EULA requirements for you, we are so indie friendly. For $5.000. Oh, you like negotiating? For $3.000. Oh, you actually read the EULAs and know that the commercial license EULA doesn't require the link? OK, no fees, just buy the commercial license.

If you happen to think this is some misunderstanding, don't. Even their marketing says on the TGB main site: "publish casual games", "Hundreds of casual games on every major portal". This basically means GG is stating: yes, we have gone through this hundreds of times, and yes, we like the extra profit.

As you can see in the 'You must pay $5000 for every casual game' thread, there are other SDK developer, like Playfirst, who have also a link requirement in the EULA. When, with the rise of the portals with their no link policy, a conflict arose, they just officially proclaimed: np, trash the link in the builds for portals. That's indie friendly. It took Playfirst 6 hours to reach this conclusion. See the official statement here: developer.playfirst.com/node/455

Don't get fooled by the pretended complexity of meeting the EULA to publish to casual portals. Get an "TGB indie commercial license" for $495 (a lot of games published on portals were finished without touching the source code) and publish to all big casual portals. A splash screen and the powered by TGB text in credits. For an nice implementation example see a game called Styrateg on Big Fish Games.

Even in this thread they are inviting you their way: "a private discussion with you if our EULA requirements are a barrier for your title." They don't even offer an advice with a simple solution: "buy the commercial license".

Draw your own conclusions.

#7 @Davey, I can see your point of view, and I understand how each deal with a portal/publisher is different, but from our (game developer's) point of view, we want to know about the potential 'barriers' before we're facing them. Release Time is not the point when you want to find out that you have to pay this fee. So at least from my perspective I'm now aware that this fee exists and I have a general understanding of its magnitude. If I can negotiate with the portals and meet both parties requirements, great! If not, then at least I'm mentally (financially) prepared.

#8 I don't see any problem with GG wanting to have discussions about a specific case private.
Anyway, I must probably be blind because I can't find in the EULA the part where it says you have to put a link to GG website. I can see the splash screen, which applies for both indie and commercial, but nothing about linking back...
However, I have to admit I'm checkig the PDF EULAs linked from the TGB product page. Maybe they are not up-to-date...

#9 From section 4c in a fairly recently downloaded TGB 1.7.4:
----- BEGIN -----
(c) Licensee agrees to include in the "About" box or in the credits screen: (i) a link to www.garagegames.com, and (ii) the wording "This game powered by Torque Game Builder." This requirement may be waived for an additional fee. Contact licensing@garagegames.com for details.
----- END -----

I sort of find it unreasonable if you can't have a section at the end of the credits listing all the technology you've used. I see that in EVERY game I have anyway. Some even have a row of icons in the splash screens, sometimes a whole splash screen just for frickin' nVidia.

#10 @Seb: My point is this is not a specific case, this is standard practice, according to GG, in hundreds of cases and has been going on for a very long time.

What I consider wrong, is that GG has done nothing to avoid the repeated situation. Instead they insist on a practice that enables them to generate as much profit as possible in each specific case and not revealing to the unknowing indies, that's it's enough to purchase the commercial license.

Well, luckily the unknowing indies have private discussions among themselves, where they share this kind of practices.

I'm quite curious what they will do with this thread and our posts. If I get banned, that would be a 1st in my life, what an honor ;)

Compare the EULA part "4. FEES", paragraph (c). In indie version it says: "a link to www.garagegames.com". In the commercial version EULA, the string "www.garagegames.com" doesn't exist.

@Ronny: the portal policy is strictly against links only. Splash screen icons and texts in credits, as long as they are not in a web link format, are ok. We can all agree that the evil unreasonable portals are responsible for this situation, conflicts of EULA, I don't care. What I consider wrong is the fact GG doesn't address the issue, doesn't provide a transparent solution and establishes practices permitting individual exploitation.

#11 Ok so the EULA on the website is not up-to-date. Sorry about that...

I hear you, Andrej. It doesn't sound the most efficient way to handle such cases, indeed, but it doesn't really surprise me (nothing against GG: it's something actually quite "standard" in the industry as it seems).
It's a little bit too bad that this problem was created as the link wasn't mandatory before... I fully understand the splash screen, but I'm not sure why teh link is useful. After all, it's not like a potention developper couldn't easily find GG website. I guesst that's why I'm not a marketing pro ;)

Anyway, don't worry for your banishment: I doubt we'll get banned for that discussion ;) I actually find it quite interesting even though I'm not really concerned at the moment...

#12 @Seb: the EULAs on the website ARE up-to-date. They are the only ones you get to read before purchase, so they better be ;)

The link was, for as long as I can remember, mandatory in the EULA. The conflict arose, when casual game portals, a couple of years back, introduced their no link policy.

#13 Hmm seems I need a little bit more sleep... I don't why, but I missread Bruno's first post and thought that the portals were forbidding links in the splash screen only.

Looks like I need more sleep at night ;)

Sorry for the confusion. Anyway, still an interesting discussion. I will take a look at that in T2D EULA when it's out (and if I can afford it :s)

#14 I'm sure the upgrade from TGB Pro won't be *that* expensive. I dunno if the final product will be worth $1000, like T3D. but at least we'll get the $250 discount. Maybe GG is also more sure of what levels of product they will offer (see the whole T3D Basic circus) ;)

#15 Hi Guys,

Andrej, is actually correct regarding the link requirement being omitted in the Commercial License

Quote:Section 4 (c) Licensee agrees to include in the "About" box or in the credits screen the wording "This game is powered by Torque Game
Builder." This requirement may be waived for an additional fee. Contact licensing@torquepowered.com for details.

So, sorry to disappoint, but, I'm not going to ban you : )
I also was pretty tired last night I and posted my comments based on Splash Screen removal, not link waivers.

We're all cool here, the simple answer for the bypassing the link requirement is "Upgrade to commercial."

#16 Oh really Davey?? Because I have installed and been using the commercial version of 1.7.4 for quite awhile. It still has both the splash screen and the link requirements in the EULA on my hard drive. It's even named "EULA_Commercial_Pro.txt"

4. FEES.

(a) The Commercial license fee for the Engine is 50, with no royalties. Licensee does not need to have any permissions or approvals from Licensor to release, publish, sell, or otherwise exploit Games.

(b) Licensee agrees to display a full screen Torque Game Builder Pro logo in the start up sequence of any game created and released with the Engine.  This requirement may be waived for an additional fee.  Contact licensing@garagegames.com for details.

(c) Licensee agrees to include in the "About" box or in the credits screen: (i) a link to http://www.garagegames.com, and (ii) the wording "This game is powered by Torque Game Builder Pro."  This requirement may be waived for an additional fee.  Contact licensing@garagegames.com for details.

From what I understand nearly no portal in existence will publish your game if it contains links, hot or cold. So basically GG is saying to us, if we want to sell games we have to pay an undisclosed amount. Actually it's been quoted around something like double the cost of the commercial license. Sickeningly steep just to remove a link. And that's PER TITLE.

Now people are bashing TGB EULA and GarageGames on the IndieGamer forums which is where nearly all the professional indies are. Maybe someone from GG should go there and clarify, I don't think these are the people (real indies) that you want to be enemies with. forums.indiegamer.com/showthread.php?t=18608

#17 Remind me not to visit those forums. Seems like a slightly hostile environment ;)

#18 The big portals will usually allow cold links unless you are vying for an exclusivity deal. Many of the smaller portals will allow both hot and cold links, especially if support is maintained by the developer rather than through the portal interface. The bigger the portal, often the more restrictions you will have, including making your games seem to be exclusive to them to funnel traffic, even if they're not exclusive at all.

#19 @ Joe: The current commercial EULA is posted here.

#20 Ok, for those of you dual surfing here and Indie Gamer, I attempted to post a reply but I'm still in my 48 hour lock out period. If someone (it particularly nice if it was Andrej or Bantam : )) would post on my behalf:

The current (10/13/2009)GarageGames Commercial TGB EULA here does NOT require a link in the credits. The previously posted message regarding a $3000 fee for link removal was in error and does not reflect our current licensing requirements.

Removal of the GarageGames Splash Screen, or removing "This game is powered by Torque Game Builder" from the credits or "About Box," DOES require an additional fee as stated in our Commercial and EULA posted here