My Insight to the T3D Situation
by Robert Sutton · in Torque 3D Beginner · 09/18/2009 (2:11 pm) · 79 replies
I know that alot of peopel have already spoke on or about the price of t3d and what ever, but I would like to make a few points clear as IO just cant hold back my thoughts anymore. I already bought tgea and tge which WERE NOT EVEN BUG FREE OR HAD PROPER DOCUMENTATION, but still none the less great engines !! Dont get me wrong on that fact, I love using them and having them thanks to GG ..but.. both are going to be crap by them not being updated..waste of money... GG needs to do something about their price... They are just going to be like any other game engine company after awhile it looks like.... Get ready indies... we will soon be screwed I think.
heres the scenerio as I see it..
GG: Oh its pricy yes.. but look at all the features...
Me: Who cares all it is, is TGEA with more stuff in the engine added for better effects...
GG: No we have redone everything
Me: Why if TGEA was great, are you calling it crap?
GG: No TGEA is a fully functional engine which we are proud of.
Me: Then why didnt you just update the source and add in the extra effects you coded in and just call it an update?
MY THOGUHT: instead of the regular price which would be 3x as low as we know we can get outa you people. so it jumped it up 3x as much concidering though already bought tgea... a chunk full of you people can afford t3d.
IF You even cut your price down by half, you would get more people to buy it in the long run, but I dont think your thinking of that because the updates form what weve seen so far from the other engines we the customer have done ourselves. Can we expect the same form this engine? if not... then why couldnt you give the full support during the last engine products, but can now?
Me: So your not sticking with the statement of you guys caring about the individual indie... So by the way that you have rolled out with tge and tgea in your production, was the lower price the reason because you used them as a beta product until you came out with better knowing you would at least have a bit of a community then? Just like we do when we make our games?
Im sorry if my opinion is one sided and may only speak for myself, but I do find it horrible the way that T3D was rolled out. I dont care if there was 50 people working on the project of t3d, we didnt ask for that or ask for you to quit giving us updates on a product that we paid for already. Pretty soon Unreal is going to have a bigger base of customers I think because the price of the next engine after t3d will be a couple grand... might as well go all out after that eh? Im sorry, im just not happy with this whole thing. Well lets all dig into our pockets once again, it wont be the last time cause if you have not noticed with the trend... the prices keep going up and up, just wait till they are 2000 for T3DA Torque 3d Advanced.... yes thats a joke but I could see it.
I just feel as though TGE and TGEA were being used as beta versions. Lack of documentation, lack of this and that. Though people may say it was all over the forums.... yes but by who? us.
So... heres another question, why can t3d not be just a update to TGEA? I mean, you see in the package of 1.8.1 of TGEA that it gives you a T3D demo... REAAALY. lets just go inside of that source and see how much has changed. In other words. new graphic codings and a few new tools. ... Is this not the same type of what TGEA was when you released it? This is just like the TGE then got upgraded to tgea type thing and price jumped alittle. The code in t3d is not fully "brand new". obviously. So when does the price raises stop? I cant wait to see T3DAdvanced price when it rolls out. And it will not stop then.
Im sorry, I just cant make any sense out of this whole situation.
GG You really should reconsider the price for T3D compared to who has already bought the tge and tgea along with the "tools and addons" for each, considering they are garbage unless we update them ourselves.
I will be buying t3d though from what ive said, so please take note im just in surprise to business practices in which the company has gone about this. Which it should of been half the price you are selling it for if you want to be fair to the indie like your company statements say.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.. ahh I can breath again lol.
Sorry GG, I love the products and love my team using such, just dont become like the other engine companies and go back on your word to the indie. This is the only engine place alot of us look up to. You inspire and motivate even a hobbist, just be sure your on the right path and not going off like it seems.
heres the scenerio as I see it..
GG: Oh its pricy yes.. but look at all the features...
Me: Who cares all it is, is TGEA with more stuff in the engine added for better effects...
GG: No we have redone everything
Me: Why if TGEA was great, are you calling it crap?
GG: No TGEA is a fully functional engine which we are proud of.
Me: Then why didnt you just update the source and add in the extra effects you coded in and just call it an update?
MY THOGUHT: instead of the regular price which would be 3x as low as we know we can get outa you people. so it jumped it up 3x as much concidering though already bought tgea... a chunk full of you people can afford t3d.
IF You even cut your price down by half, you would get more people to buy it in the long run, but I dont think your thinking of that because the updates form what weve seen so far from the other engines we the customer have done ourselves. Can we expect the same form this engine? if not... then why couldnt you give the full support during the last engine products, but can now?
Me: So your not sticking with the statement of you guys caring about the individual indie... So by the way that you have rolled out with tge and tgea in your production, was the lower price the reason because you used them as a beta product until you came out with better knowing you would at least have a bit of a community then? Just like we do when we make our games?
Im sorry if my opinion is one sided and may only speak for myself, but I do find it horrible the way that T3D was rolled out. I dont care if there was 50 people working on the project of t3d, we didnt ask for that or ask for you to quit giving us updates on a product that we paid for already. Pretty soon Unreal is going to have a bigger base of customers I think because the price of the next engine after t3d will be a couple grand... might as well go all out after that eh? Im sorry, im just not happy with this whole thing. Well lets all dig into our pockets once again, it wont be the last time cause if you have not noticed with the trend... the prices keep going up and up, just wait till they are 2000 for T3DA Torque 3d Advanced.... yes thats a joke but I could see it.
I just feel as though TGE and TGEA were being used as beta versions. Lack of documentation, lack of this and that. Though people may say it was all over the forums.... yes but by who? us.
So... heres another question, why can t3d not be just a update to TGEA? I mean, you see in the package of 1.8.1 of TGEA that it gives you a T3D demo... REAAALY. lets just go inside of that source and see how much has changed. In other words. new graphic codings and a few new tools. ... Is this not the same type of what TGEA was when you released it? This is just like the TGE then got upgraded to tgea type thing and price jumped alittle. The code in t3d is not fully "brand new". obviously. So when does the price raises stop? I cant wait to see T3DAdvanced price when it rolls out. And it will not stop then.
Im sorry, I just cant make any sense out of this whole situation.
GG You really should reconsider the price for T3D compared to who has already bought the tge and tgea along with the "tools and addons" for each, considering they are garbage unless we update them ourselves.
I will be buying t3d though from what ive said, so please take note im just in surprise to business practices in which the company has gone about this. Which it should of been half the price you are selling it for if you want to be fair to the indie like your company statements say.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.. ahh I can breath again lol.
Sorry GG, I love the products and love my team using such, just dont become like the other engine companies and go back on your word to the indie. This is the only engine place alot of us look up to. You inspire and motivate even a hobbist, just be sure your on the right path and not going off like it seems.
About the author
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#22
Really I'm still working with TGEA so I'd love to have the new terrain, lighting, shadows, etc, etc, etc???? Really excited now.
If all GG do is wrap up a few resources and repackage things then why have you paid for TGEA? and why did your first post say you'll be buying Torque 3D?
We had all the conspiracy stuff on your "They stole my game" thread which was pure pie in the sky and this one is shaping up the same way I'm afraid - or perhaps you waver between this and a different reality where GG are the evil spawn of satan, sucking the ideas and life from our souls, yes yes that must be it they're stealing ideas and oh my god we're all going to die!!!!
Thank god you noticed Robert, before it's too late --- quick quick stop posting resources everyone before we're all doomed. Now I think of it, those monthly IRC sessions are just a way to brainwash us:
... I shall obey, my precious..
.. code you a new engine I must..
YOU WILL CODE FOR US OR DIE!!
What happened to those attending GDC or other events?? My god Bretts been on a tour of the world hunting minions and stealing code from every continent - there's no stopping them, we're doomed, doomed I say..
I can just see it:
Brett: So Evil Lord Fairfax how many community resources shall we steal today?
Matt: I'm not sure Overlord Sylar, is it not Diabolic Deborah or Mephistophelian Michs turn today?
Deb: It's mine one minute, your wickedness
Deb: Just the 6 today
Brett: Don't know why I ask it's always 6.. every time it's just 6-6-6!!!
Matt: Btw, did I mention we're getting a new developer on the team... his names DAMIEN!!
Brett: Excellent between GhastlyGames and Sick'in'the'Head Studios we'll soon have Torque 4D supreme 3D Whizzy Advanced complete
Just on a quick side note - on the documentation front we now have GG's very own Evil Lord of Language Mich writing docs and from what I've seen so far of the new docs for Torque 3D they're a thousand times better than anything released for previous versions of Torque.
Doomed I tells ya!!
09/20/2009 (1:48 pm)
@Robert - Could you please share where these community resources are that turned TGE into TGEA, or TGEA now into Torque 3D???Really I'm still working with TGEA so I'd love to have the new terrain, lighting, shadows, etc, etc, etc???? Really excited now.
If all GG do is wrap up a few resources and repackage things then why have you paid for TGEA? and why did your first post say you'll be buying Torque 3D?
We had all the conspiracy stuff on your "They stole my game" thread which was pure pie in the sky and this one is shaping up the same way I'm afraid - or perhaps you waver between this and a different reality where GG are the evil spawn of satan, sucking the ideas and life from our souls, yes yes that must be it they're stealing ideas and oh my god we're all going to die!!!!
Thank god you noticed Robert, before it's too late --- quick quick stop posting resources everyone before we're all doomed. Now I think of it, those monthly IRC sessions are just a way to brainwash us:
... I shall obey, my precious..
.. code you a new engine I must..
YOU WILL CODE FOR US OR DIE!!
What happened to those attending GDC or other events?? My god Bretts been on a tour of the world hunting minions and stealing code from every continent - there's no stopping them, we're doomed, doomed I say..
I can just see it:
Brett: So Evil Lord Fairfax how many community resources shall we steal today?
Matt: I'm not sure Overlord Sylar, is it not Diabolic Deborah or Mephistophelian Michs turn today?
Deb: It's mine one minute, your wickedness
Deb: Just the 6 today
Brett: Don't know why I ask it's always 6.. every time it's just 6-6-6!!!
Matt: Btw, did I mention we're getting a new developer on the team... his names DAMIEN!!
Brett: Excellent between GhastlyGames and Sick'in'the'Head Studios we'll soon have Torque 4D supreme 3D Whizzy Advanced complete
Just on a quick side note - on the documentation front we now have GG's very own Evil Lord of Language Mich writing docs and from what I've seen so far of the new docs for Torque 3D they're a thousand times better than anything released for previous versions of Torque.
Doomed I tells ya!!
#23
09/20/2009 (3:04 pm)
LOL Andy. My gosh, my stomach hurts from laughing now....You Evil person you. :-D
#24
I don't have a day job right now, but I purchased the engine. I would say that I'm an intermediate programmer, but what's skill level have to do with whether it's a hobby or not? Is someone who paints like a master painter not a hobbyist anymore even if they just do it on weekends and never sell the work? C'mon...
Garage Games has said clearly in previous posts that T3D is TGE 3.0, or TGEA 2.0, and as you should reasonably know from other software, major updates are almost always paid updates.
And again, I like the argument that has been made by many people (not just yourself) about not caring about how many people GG has working on a product in relation to its price. Really... What for-profit company or organization releases a product or service without regard for what they put into it? Name just one that can sustain itself.
Garage Games needs to keep abreast of the technology that we complain about it not having, and when they hire the talent needed to do so, and then raise the price in order to recoup the money and stay on top of the feature we complain about, we complain about the very thing we asked for?
Or do people expect Garage Games to pull money out of thin air to feed its people?
09/21/2009 (1:10 am)
Quote:If you dont notice, the people saying 1k is a great price. Obviously have a great job and are advanced programmers or artists who have been in here for along time and usually are able to make money witht he engine either in helping, making a new game, or whatever be the case.
I don't have a day job right now, but I purchased the engine. I would say that I'm an intermediate programmer, but what's skill level have to do with whether it's a hobby or not? Is someone who paints like a master painter not a hobbyist anymore even if they just do it on weekends and never sell the work? C'mon...
Garage Games has said clearly in previous posts that T3D is TGE 3.0, or TGEA 2.0, and as you should reasonably know from other software, major updates are almost always paid updates.
And again, I like the argument that has been made by many people (not just yourself) about not caring about how many people GG has working on a product in relation to its price. Really... What for-profit company or organization releases a product or service without regard for what they put into it? Name just one that can sustain itself.
Garage Games needs to keep abreast of the technology that we complain about it not having, and when they hire the talent needed to do so, and then raise the price in order to recoup the money and stay on top of the feature we complain about, we complain about the very thing we asked for?
Or do people expect Garage Games to pull money out of thin air to feed its people?
#25
What happened with TGEA was no trick or clever plan by GG. It falls fully on the shoulders of several of the GG employees themselves!
First, GG was hit hard by the new found exploits of one of their previously most loyal Mr. Fairfax. He was hardly seen for months at a time with his pursuit of his new career in rap videos... a pic is included below as evidence:
.... Still, GG was further set back on progress made when Deborah herself had little time left in her busy day from her new found interests in celebrities.. I captured this one easily since she doesnt know what I look like:
... Finally.. I think they have been taking pointers from some pretty hi places which is where I BELIEVE the price increase for T3D comes from... here's a well known GG emplyee pal'ing around with... well..
... then, there's another one who everyone knows about. He went straight past them all directly into films... now you tell me how they can work on stuff when doing things like this:
... Sorry GG.. I had to out all of you. Yep.. the secrets are all out. Or, like my post, this entire thread could be pretty much BS and we can all get back to work, seeing how I wasted to much time already on stalker resembling pics! ;)
Regards.. ~LK~
09/21/2009 (1:53 am)
Actually....What happened with TGEA was no trick or clever plan by GG. It falls fully on the shoulders of several of the GG employees themselves!
First, GG was hit hard by the new found exploits of one of their previously most loyal Mr. Fairfax. He was hardly seen for months at a time with his pursuit of his new career in rap videos... a pic is included below as evidence:
.... Still, GG was further set back on progress made when Deborah herself had little time left in her busy day from her new found interests in celebrities.. I captured this one easily since she doesnt know what I look like:
... Finally.. I think they have been taking pointers from some pretty hi places which is where I BELIEVE the price increase for T3D comes from... here's a well known GG emplyee pal'ing around with... well..
... then, there's another one who everyone knows about. He went straight past them all directly into films... now you tell me how they can work on stuff when doing things like this:
... Sorry GG.. I had to out all of you. Yep.. the secrets are all out. Or, like my post, this entire thread could be pretty much BS and we can all get back to work, seeing how I wasted to much time already on stalker resembling pics! ;)
Regards.. ~LK~
#26
09/21/2009 (1:58 am)
*cough* stalker *cough* [/ :D ]
#27
09/21/2009 (1:58 am)
shhhhh.. quick.. behind the bushes!
#28
T3D IS UPDATED TGEA...
Updated.. as in should be in UPDATES to TGEA...
This should not be a entirly its own product, expecailly since your not updating tgea anymore... WELL DUH Cause GG JUST HAS ass the update is called T3D. They cannot update TGEA because all the updates were rolled into a new name of the same project. Any more updates and it would be t3d ...
So... Exactly why was TGEA not updated slowly to incorporate all of these "new" features... but yet GG waiting to do everything at once and just call it a new product when all it should be is a customer update and probably should of been updated along time ago, which it could have been if GG was not holding back with "updating..." as they are "trying hard" to finish documentation for tgea... Ok that makes no sense either and I still have not heard a responce to why it was not done...
BUT NOW I KNOW....
TGEA Didnt have documentation cause they didnt want to waste their time on it considering they knew this was their plan. Why else would they only roll out documentaTION OR even CARE about doing a documentation NOW ? and not back then or even over the past 5 years or whatever. But now you want to do documentation to a BETA Engine but still cant complete the documentation to the old ones? Makes no sense. Why not just copy and paste the book ED made like TGEA Documentation, it would be much easier.. and you wouldnt even have to work :) ... Kinda like the existing Documentation from GG into TGEA. If a Customer knows more about your engine then you do, and cares for the other people using the engine... to produce his own documentation and a book for the engine because GG couldnt or didnt think it was time worthy... No Comment.
So to the "Joke and HAHA of a Conspiracy" from the Associate above about a conspiracy... I believe your right and it is not a joke phillip.
I just think it's wrong of how this all went down still... I could of bought T3D right now, but I would still be saying something.
Comments made about and to GG can only help them understand alot of the customers thoughts and problems as to help their business in the ways of operations. Customer opinion counts for everything. So if you guys think im crazy for some of the things I say... I have my reasons, I hope they actually take a look at what I say and the rest of the community.
09/21/2009 (2:04 am)
ok, the HUGE missing part that no one has still related a answer to.T3D IS UPDATED TGEA...
Updated.. as in should be in UPDATES to TGEA...
This should not be a entirly its own product, expecailly since your not updating tgea anymore... WELL DUH Cause GG JUST HAS ass the update is called T3D. They cannot update TGEA because all the updates were rolled into a new name of the same project. Any more updates and it would be t3d ...
So... Exactly why was TGEA not updated slowly to incorporate all of these "new" features... but yet GG waiting to do everything at once and just call it a new product when all it should be is a customer update and probably should of been updated along time ago, which it could have been if GG was not holding back with "updating..." as they are "trying hard" to finish documentation for tgea... Ok that makes no sense either and I still have not heard a responce to why it was not done...
BUT NOW I KNOW....
TGEA Didnt have documentation cause they didnt want to waste their time on it considering they knew this was their plan. Why else would they only roll out documentaTION OR even CARE about doing a documentation NOW ? and not back then or even over the past 5 years or whatever. But now you want to do documentation to a BETA Engine but still cant complete the documentation to the old ones? Makes no sense. Why not just copy and paste the book ED made like TGEA Documentation, it would be much easier.. and you wouldnt even have to work :) ... Kinda like the existing Documentation from GG into TGEA. If a Customer knows more about your engine then you do, and cares for the other people using the engine... to produce his own documentation and a book for the engine because GG couldnt or didnt think it was time worthy... No Comment.
So to the "Joke and HAHA of a Conspiracy" from the Associate above about a conspiracy... I believe your right and it is not a joke phillip.
I just think it's wrong of how this all went down still... I could of bought T3D right now, but I would still be saying something.
Comments made about and to GG can only help them understand alot of the customers thoughts and problems as to help their business in the ways of operations. Customer opinion counts for everything. So if you guys think im crazy for some of the things I say... I have my reasons, I hope they actually take a look at what I say and the rest of the community.
#29
Sorry about the above.. but couldn't resist. My opinion is your opinion is way off. If you think I'm a fanboy of GG and their products, take a look back over the years at many of my posts.
I held out from buying T3D because of a bad taste in my mouth from TGEA, and from some interactions I had with specific employees back then (none listed above) that really soured me from this place. I missed the big discounts by choice, meaning my fault. When I did decide to take the risk, I found that T3D does NOT resemble TGEA in any meaningful way. It is NOT TGEA with community resources added in with afew more features.. it is much more than that.
I can honestly say that T3D is worth the money asked and then some. You may not like the direction GG is going, but to many of us, it is exactly what has been complained about for years for them to do.
TGE for it's time was damn good. TGEA (sorry GG people) shook my faith in a God for allowing such an abomination to exist. And finally.. T3D is simply spectacular, and in no way do I feel cheated having paid for all three.
I wish you luck, and no ill will, but I cannot agree with you on most of these things.
09/21/2009 (2:20 am)
Quote:Customer opinion counts for everything
Sorry about the above.. but couldn't resist. My opinion is your opinion is way off. If you think I'm a fanboy of GG and their products, take a look back over the years at many of my posts.
I held out from buying T3D because of a bad taste in my mouth from TGEA, and from some interactions I had with specific employees back then (none listed above) that really soured me from this place. I missed the big discounts by choice, meaning my fault. When I did decide to take the risk, I found that T3D does NOT resemble TGEA in any meaningful way. It is NOT TGEA with community resources added in with afew more features.. it is much more than that.
I can honestly say that T3D is worth the money asked and then some. You may not like the direction GG is going, but to many of us, it is exactly what has been complained about for years for them to do.
TGE for it's time was damn good. TGEA (sorry GG people) shook my faith in a God for allowing such an abomination to exist. And finally.. T3D is simply spectacular, and in no way do I feel cheated having paid for all three.
I wish you luck, and no ill will, but I cannot agree with you on most of these things.
#30
$1,000 was a big decision for myself and the other few guys on my team that either have or will soon have licences. It was a decision we made based on the extremely impressive tools and capabilities of Torque.
(Actually the river editor was the real big decision maker :-) Kudos on that)
Now, I tend to agree a little with Mr. Suttons comment that I would be very displeased if in a couple of years T3D Wraith of the Code King version is released and I was asked to fork out a bucket load more money whereas if GG developed an entirely new program then you can expect a new price tag.
However, what little experience I have had with the T3D community here and GG staff I don't think they really do conspire to rip off the little man. I agree with Andrew, T3D is worth the price tag and if I had TGEA prior to T3D then I would probably be ranting the same rant as he did.
Why the big beef Mr. Sutton? As a TGEA owner don't you get a $345 discount anyway? So your T3D will only be $655. That way you are not actually buying two products. You are only buying T3D but getting TGEA and TGE chucked in for free ;-)
Pretty nice deal if you ask me.
And as for your earlier comments about wanting a bug free product, come on mate. Name a game/program/application whatever that is bug free.
Will your developed game be bug free?
Will you charge your customers for Expansions (that might inadvertantly fix bugs from a previous version?)
Will you include community developed mods that everyone thinks should be in the next update?
And of course the really big question we all need to ask ourselves, why am I even responding to this thread?
:-)
09/21/2009 (3:35 am)
As a short time listener and even shorter time poster I feel obliged to chuck m,y 2 Australian cents worth in. (With exchange rates that's about 1.25 US cents so probably not worth as much as everyone elses comments)$1,000 was a big decision for myself and the other few guys on my team that either have or will soon have licences. It was a decision we made based on the extremely impressive tools and capabilities of Torque.
(Actually the river editor was the real big decision maker :-) Kudos on that)
Now, I tend to agree a little with Mr. Suttons comment that I would be very displeased if in a couple of years T3D Wraith of the Code King version is released and I was asked to fork out a bucket load more money whereas if GG developed an entirely new program then you can expect a new price tag.
However, what little experience I have had with the T3D community here and GG staff I don't think they really do conspire to rip off the little man. I agree with Andrew, T3D is worth the price tag and if I had TGEA prior to T3D then I would probably be ranting the same rant as he did.
Why the big beef Mr. Sutton? As a TGEA owner don't you get a $345 discount anyway? So your T3D will only be $655. That way you are not actually buying two products. You are only buying T3D but getting TGEA and TGE chucked in for free ;-)
Pretty nice deal if you ask me.
And as for your earlier comments about wanting a bug free product, come on mate. Name a game/program/application whatever that is bug free.
Will your developed game be bug free?
Will you charge your customers for Expansions (that might inadvertantly fix bugs from a previous version?)
Will you include community developed mods that everyone thinks should be in the next update?
And of course the really big question we all need to ask ourselves, why am I even responding to this thread?
:-)
#31
First off I dont expect it to be bug free, but GG should be actually updating their products as they get them, instead of rolling out an update in whole and calling it a new engine.
You see, it is the fact that the lack of support and updates from GG and the huge kept silence as the community had to run the community for documentation, fixes... everything while GG took a step out of the picture and just updated the engine whenever just to keep the base population down from complaining after a year of no updates so it seems ( not literal... but kinda ) So instead of this TGEA being updated as the customer support says... Sure it was free updates for crap.. Then GG put all the imnportant updates only in a new product... but still was TGEA source. TGEA Should of had some of these improvements along time ago.
You see my fact is not the point that T3D is great or isnt great. My point is that this is a TGEA update and now being charged out the crack for an update that the customers should already of had, instead of GG waiting forever to care then rolled out with a new name.
Its like... I make a vanilla ice cream cone. Add chocolate and its 25 cents... the ice cream itself is 2 dollars.
As tgea already had alot of the source from t3d... the extra options and addons to t3d is just the chocolate in which they charge not a fraction of an update... but 2 - 3x ( not literal ) More above the price of the original when it was built on the original.
Discount for owning TGEA AND TGE ? Only for a limited time? Thats stupid...
You see, my ending is this..... It is not that I cant buy it, cause I can and will. But sometimes when people speak it is not just for themselves or what they benefit it to. "Why the big beef Mr. Sutton? As a TGEA owner don't you get a $345 discount anyway? So your T3D will only be $655. That way you are not actually buying two products. You are only buying T3D but getting TGEA and TGE chucked in for free ;-)"
aND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS, NOT JUST ME.
And you actually think these discounts will last? Like GG Cares? They only diwscount it right now cause they want alot of money before release, after you get so much customer base... you will notice a lack of information from GG and we will be back to a community only supporting issues for the engine.
You will see, it has happend to every other product which has been released :) I just want GG to actually act like they care about the community instead of themselves SOMETIMES.
09/21/2009 (5:49 am)
Hey buddy,First off I dont expect it to be bug free, but GG should be actually updating their products as they get them, instead of rolling out an update in whole and calling it a new engine.
You see, it is the fact that the lack of support and updates from GG and the huge kept silence as the community had to run the community for documentation, fixes... everything while GG took a step out of the picture and just updated the engine whenever just to keep the base population down from complaining after a year of no updates so it seems ( not literal... but kinda ) So instead of this TGEA being updated as the customer support says... Sure it was free updates for crap.. Then GG put all the imnportant updates only in a new product... but still was TGEA source. TGEA Should of had some of these improvements along time ago.
You see my fact is not the point that T3D is great or isnt great. My point is that this is a TGEA update and now being charged out the crack for an update that the customers should already of had, instead of GG waiting forever to care then rolled out with a new name.
Its like... I make a vanilla ice cream cone. Add chocolate and its 25 cents... the ice cream itself is 2 dollars.
As tgea already had alot of the source from t3d... the extra options and addons to t3d is just the chocolate in which they charge not a fraction of an update... but 2 - 3x ( not literal ) More above the price of the original when it was built on the original.
Discount for owning TGEA AND TGE ? Only for a limited time? Thats stupid...
You see, my ending is this..... It is not that I cant buy it, cause I can and will. But sometimes when people speak it is not just for themselves or what they benefit it to. "Why the big beef Mr. Sutton? As a TGEA owner don't you get a $345 discount anyway? So your T3D will only be $655. That way you are not actually buying two products. You are only buying T3D but getting TGEA and TGE chucked in for free ;-)"
aND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHERS, NOT JUST ME.
And you actually think these discounts will last? Like GG Cares? They only diwscount it right now cause they want alot of money before release, after you get so much customer base... you will notice a lack of information from GG and we will be back to a community only supporting issues for the engine.
You will see, it has happend to every other product which has been released :) I just want GG to actually act like they care about the community instead of themselves SOMETIMES.
#32
You are responding because it's an epic thread.
I could actually name an app that was bugfree...but it was 748 bytes (fully compiled) and for a platform long dead, so not that useful :)
Expansions which fix problems happen ALL THE TIME. Some companies bother to create a version-synced non-expansion binary (BioWare with NWN), but most don't. It can be a lot of work for smaller companies or lone developers. The trick is to include new features with the fixes - or maybe the new features replace the buggy old ways. Sometimes you just need to drop the old, rotten, stinky code.
TGEA was a bit too little, too late in many people's opinion. T3D is a real contender for top indie engine (being 1/1000th the price of UE3 and CryEngine makes it indie!). I know some people have issues with the toolbox, but I personally like it. Certainly the lighting is better :)
If GG are feeling brave, please post a breakdown of how many man- and woman-hours of work have been put into T3D.
09/21/2009 (5:54 am)
@David McD:You are responding because it's an epic thread.
I could actually name an app that was bugfree...but it was 748 bytes (fully compiled) and for a platform long dead, so not that useful :)
Expansions which fix problems happen ALL THE TIME. Some companies bother to create a version-synced non-expansion binary (BioWare with NWN), but most don't. It can be a lot of work for smaller companies or lone developers. The trick is to include new features with the fixes - or maybe the new features replace the buggy old ways. Sometimes you just need to drop the old, rotten, stinky code.
TGEA was a bit too little, too late in many people's opinion. T3D is a real contender for top indie engine (being 1/1000th the price of UE3 and CryEngine makes it indie!). I know some people have issues with the toolbox, but I personally like it. Certainly the lighting is better :)
If GG are feeling brave, please post a breakdown of how many man- and woman-hours of work have been put into T3D.
#33
1.7 and 1.8 have had pretty fast turn-arounds with the amount of code refactoring that went into them. And Torque 3D has had a *HUGE* amount of code refactoring and redesign. We did not wait with our hands wringing maniacally thinking "I'm gonna totally screw over Robert Sutton" and throw our hands to the sky laughing "mwahahaha!" all Kefka-esque. While I know you feel there is some grand conspiracy to somehow cheat money out of hard-working dev's, you couldn't be further off-base.
When looking at the design of TGEA 2.0 and the features we wanted to implement in the engine, we quickly realized that it would have to be a paid upgrade. There would be no feasible way to get the work done with the huge amount of man-hours needed without charging for it. We also had to ensure that the level of development that we were doing was sustainable; we did not want to leave people in the dark. That had happened in the past. And if you've been an active member of the TGEA community over the last couple of years, you shouldn't really feel left in the dark. The communication on what we were doing with 1.7 and 1.8 was better than it had ever been in any era of TGEA's history. This was the "least dark" period. The transparency on Torque 3D has been great as well.
We also wanted to rebrand our engines, which seems to be a point of contention in your posts. The reason we wanted to rebrand them was to clearly delineate their functionality: Torque 2D and Torque 3D. TGEA was nut a very good name, and we wanted a clear marker for our project. The most appropriate time to perform a branding change is during a paid release. Even if we had kept the name the same, it would have been a paid release and the development dollars to keep it as a sustainable project and to help pay for the dev time would have required it to still be a significant chunk of change.
I think you're a little misinformed about the discount as well from your message. The discount for owning TGEA is not a limited-time offer. The full cost of TGEA will be towards Torque 3D Professional once it goes gold. The pre-order discount is probably what you meant. That, necessarily, will go away since the whole concept of pre-ordering hinges on the product not being available yet.
And on a completely OT note, out of curiosity since I find your capitalization habits interesting, usually people capitalize to shout out pieces they want to emphasize as important. What was important about the TION in documentation?
09/21/2009 (11:17 am)
@Robert1.7 and 1.8 have had pretty fast turn-arounds with the amount of code refactoring that went into them. And Torque 3D has had a *HUGE* amount of code refactoring and redesign. We did not wait with our hands wringing maniacally thinking "I'm gonna totally screw over Robert Sutton" and throw our hands to the sky laughing "mwahahaha!" all Kefka-esque. While I know you feel there is some grand conspiracy to somehow cheat money out of hard-working dev's, you couldn't be further off-base.
When looking at the design of TGEA 2.0 and the features we wanted to implement in the engine, we quickly realized that it would have to be a paid upgrade. There would be no feasible way to get the work done with the huge amount of man-hours needed without charging for it. We also had to ensure that the level of development that we were doing was sustainable; we did not want to leave people in the dark. That had happened in the past. And if you've been an active member of the TGEA community over the last couple of years, you shouldn't really feel left in the dark. The communication on what we were doing with 1.7 and 1.8 was better than it had ever been in any era of TGEA's history. This was the "least dark" period. The transparency on Torque 3D has been great as well.
We also wanted to rebrand our engines, which seems to be a point of contention in your posts. The reason we wanted to rebrand them was to clearly delineate their functionality: Torque 2D and Torque 3D. TGEA was nut a very good name, and we wanted a clear marker for our project. The most appropriate time to perform a branding change is during a paid release. Even if we had kept the name the same, it would have been a paid release and the development dollars to keep it as a sustainable project and to help pay for the dev time would have required it to still be a significant chunk of change.
I think you're a little misinformed about the discount as well from your message. The discount for owning TGEA is not a limited-time offer. The full cost of TGEA will be towards Torque 3D Professional once it goes gold. The pre-order discount is probably what you meant. That, necessarily, will go away since the whole concept of pre-ordering hinges on the product not being available yet.
And on a completely OT note, out of curiosity since I find your capitalization habits interesting, usually people capitalize to shout out pieces they want to emphasize as important. What was important about the TION in documentation?
#34
To start; I think you all know me; ain't no fanBoi.....never was, never will be.
To me, and it's my 'opinion', it comes down to this:
Is it an 'opinion' that says T3D is the same engine as TGEA, or is it a 'fact'.
There is a vast difference between the two. Opinion and Fact.
Sorry to disagree; but it seems as though the thrust of this Thread is relying upon 'opinion' rather than 'fact' to make the argument that the T3D product is the same as the TGEA product?
Let's start labeling statements as either Opinion or Fact, and provide references to substantiate each claim. Sighting a reference is a big step towards establishing, 'facts'.... Because a 'fact' is a 'true' statement; please all, don't say 'true fact' it's redundant...facts are TRUE!
Come on, we're all pretty 'clever' monkeys here...we can do this, separate 'Opinion' from 'Fact'.
Let the blindfolded lady, with balance in hand, be the arbiter here.
Cheers!
09/21/2009 (11:24 am)
...sorry to 'chime' in; hardly ever do on a Thread such as this.To start; I think you all know me; ain't no fanBoi.....never was, never will be.
To me, and it's my 'opinion', it comes down to this:
Is it an 'opinion' that says T3D is the same engine as TGEA, or is it a 'fact'.
There is a vast difference between the two. Opinion and Fact.
Sorry to disagree; but it seems as though the thrust of this Thread is relying upon 'opinion' rather than 'fact' to make the argument that the T3D product is the same as the TGEA product?
Let's start labeling statements as either Opinion or Fact, and provide references to substantiate each claim. Sighting a reference is a big step towards establishing, 'facts'.... Because a 'fact' is a 'true' statement; please all, don't say 'true fact' it's redundant...facts are TRUE!
Come on, we're all pretty 'clever' monkeys here...we can do this, separate 'Opinion' from 'Fact'.
Let the blindfolded lady, with balance in hand, be the arbiter here.
Cheers!
#35
09/21/2009 (12:01 pm)
Wow, I call in sick Friday and stay off the forums entirely for the weekend and I come back to find I missed loony conspiracy hour. I may be wrong, but I think this is the first time someone claimed conspiracy with T3D. 
#36
Now, better get back to work before more half-baked theories about documentation are concocted (of all the things to conspire on, docs are the most boring).
09/21/2009 (1:37 pm)
@Andy and Andrew - Awesome photoshops and stories =)Now, better get back to work before more half-baked theories about documentation are concocted (of all the things to conspire on, docs are the most boring).
#37
Im done with this thread.
My next thread will be called SHIVA Engine vs T3D :P Im sure that will be a fun one - maybe ill have to buy both just to find out and repost all the great stuff pro and con. :P
09/21/2009 (1:50 pm)
It was fact as blake had said, so please read all posts. As he did say that T3D was originally tgea. Thanks though :PIm done with this thread.
My next thread will be called SHIVA Engine vs T3D :P Im sure that will be a fun one - maybe ill have to buy both just to find out and repost all the great stuff pro and con. :P
#38
Sounds like a case of the poor workman blaming his tools... Good luck with your project.
09/21/2009 (1:53 pm)
Quote:Now, im switching to Shiva engine :P
Sounds like a case of the poor workman blaming his tools... Good luck with your project.
#40
Shiva's an interesting binary engine. I prefer Unity, DX Studio, and GameCore (previously BeyondVirtual) in terms of binary engines--in that order. Of course, you would probably be as unhappy about their licensing costs as well. Especially DXStudio's annual support charge. Shiva is a nice engine, but I've found the others to be more elegantly designed.
Good luck with your decision to work with Shiva.
09/21/2009 (3:33 pm)
Torque 3D is based on strong Torque tech before it, sure. We never claimed anything that it wasn't. So I'm not sure what kind of "proof" you feel you're pointing out. But the massive changes have pushed it beyond a simple patch with resources. By claiming that, you undermine all of the development that has gone into it; not that you seem to understand that significant man-hours have gone into it. Instead, you seem happy to concoct very strange conspiracy fiction.Shiva's an interesting binary engine. I prefer Unity, DX Studio, and GameCore (previously BeyondVirtual) in terms of binary engines--in that order. Of course, you would probably be as unhappy about their licensing costs as well. Especially DXStudio's annual support charge. Shiva is a nice engine, but I've found the others to be more elegantly designed.
Good luck with your decision to work with Shiva.
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