My Insight to the T3D Situation
by Robert Sutton · in Torque 3D Beginner · 09/18/2009 (2:11 pm) · 79 replies
I know that alot of peopel have already spoke on or about the price of t3d and what ever, but I would like to make a few points clear as IO just cant hold back my thoughts anymore. I already bought tgea and tge which WERE NOT EVEN BUG FREE OR HAD PROPER DOCUMENTATION, but still none the less great engines !! Dont get me wrong on that fact, I love using them and having them thanks to GG ..but.. both are going to be crap by them not being updated..waste of money... GG needs to do something about their price... They are just going to be like any other game engine company after awhile it looks like.... Get ready indies... we will soon be screwed I think.
heres the scenerio as I see it..
GG: Oh its pricy yes.. but look at all the features...
Me: Who cares all it is, is TGEA with more stuff in the engine added for better effects...
GG: No we have redone everything
Me: Why if TGEA was great, are you calling it crap?
GG: No TGEA is a fully functional engine which we are proud of.
Me: Then why didnt you just update the source and add in the extra effects you coded in and just call it an update?
MY THOGUHT: instead of the regular price which would be 3x as low as we know we can get outa you people. so it jumped it up 3x as much concidering though already bought tgea... a chunk full of you people can afford t3d.
IF You even cut your price down by half, you would get more people to buy it in the long run, but I dont think your thinking of that because the updates form what weve seen so far from the other engines we the customer have done ourselves. Can we expect the same form this engine? if not... then why couldnt you give the full support during the last engine products, but can now?
Me: So your not sticking with the statement of you guys caring about the individual indie... So by the way that you have rolled out with tge and tgea in your production, was the lower price the reason because you used them as a beta product until you came out with better knowing you would at least have a bit of a community then? Just like we do when we make our games?
Im sorry if my opinion is one sided and may only speak for myself, but I do find it horrible the way that T3D was rolled out. I dont care if there was 50 people working on the project of t3d, we didnt ask for that or ask for you to quit giving us updates on a product that we paid for already. Pretty soon Unreal is going to have a bigger base of customers I think because the price of the next engine after t3d will be a couple grand... might as well go all out after that eh? Im sorry, im just not happy with this whole thing. Well lets all dig into our pockets once again, it wont be the last time cause if you have not noticed with the trend... the prices keep going up and up, just wait till they are 2000 for T3DA Torque 3d Advanced.... yes thats a joke but I could see it.
I just feel as though TGE and TGEA were being used as beta versions. Lack of documentation, lack of this and that. Though people may say it was all over the forums.... yes but by who? us.
So... heres another question, why can t3d not be just a update to TGEA? I mean, you see in the package of 1.8.1 of TGEA that it gives you a T3D demo... REAAALY. lets just go inside of that source and see how much has changed. In other words. new graphic codings and a few new tools. ... Is this not the same type of what TGEA was when you released it? This is just like the TGE then got upgraded to tgea type thing and price jumped alittle. The code in t3d is not fully "brand new". obviously. So when does the price raises stop? I cant wait to see T3DAdvanced price when it rolls out. And it will not stop then.
Im sorry, I just cant make any sense out of this whole situation.
GG You really should reconsider the price for T3D compared to who has already bought the tge and tgea along with the "tools and addons" for each, considering they are garbage unless we update them ourselves.
I will be buying t3d though from what ive said, so please take note im just in surprise to business practices in which the company has gone about this. Which it should of been half the price you are selling it for if you want to be fair to the indie like your company statements say.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.. ahh I can breath again lol.
Sorry GG, I love the products and love my team using such, just dont become like the other engine companies and go back on your word to the indie. This is the only engine place alot of us look up to. You inspire and motivate even a hobbist, just be sure your on the right path and not going off like it seems.
heres the scenerio as I see it..
GG: Oh its pricy yes.. but look at all the features...
Me: Who cares all it is, is TGEA with more stuff in the engine added for better effects...
GG: No we have redone everything
Me: Why if TGEA was great, are you calling it crap?
GG: No TGEA is a fully functional engine which we are proud of.
Me: Then why didnt you just update the source and add in the extra effects you coded in and just call it an update?
MY THOGUHT: instead of the regular price which would be 3x as low as we know we can get outa you people. so it jumped it up 3x as much concidering though already bought tgea... a chunk full of you people can afford t3d.
IF You even cut your price down by half, you would get more people to buy it in the long run, but I dont think your thinking of that because the updates form what weve seen so far from the other engines we the customer have done ourselves. Can we expect the same form this engine? if not... then why couldnt you give the full support during the last engine products, but can now?
Me: So your not sticking with the statement of you guys caring about the individual indie... So by the way that you have rolled out with tge and tgea in your production, was the lower price the reason because you used them as a beta product until you came out with better knowing you would at least have a bit of a community then? Just like we do when we make our games?
Im sorry if my opinion is one sided and may only speak for myself, but I do find it horrible the way that T3D was rolled out. I dont care if there was 50 people working on the project of t3d, we didnt ask for that or ask for you to quit giving us updates on a product that we paid for already. Pretty soon Unreal is going to have a bigger base of customers I think because the price of the next engine after t3d will be a couple grand... might as well go all out after that eh? Im sorry, im just not happy with this whole thing. Well lets all dig into our pockets once again, it wont be the last time cause if you have not noticed with the trend... the prices keep going up and up, just wait till they are 2000 for T3DA Torque 3d Advanced.... yes thats a joke but I could see it.
I just feel as though TGE and TGEA were being used as beta versions. Lack of documentation, lack of this and that. Though people may say it was all over the forums.... yes but by who? us.
So... heres another question, why can t3d not be just a update to TGEA? I mean, you see in the package of 1.8.1 of TGEA that it gives you a T3D demo... REAAALY. lets just go inside of that source and see how much has changed. In other words. new graphic codings and a few new tools. ... Is this not the same type of what TGEA was when you released it? This is just like the TGE then got upgraded to tgea type thing and price jumped alittle. The code in t3d is not fully "brand new". obviously. So when does the price raises stop? I cant wait to see T3DAdvanced price when it rolls out. And it will not stop then.
Im sorry, I just cant make any sense out of this whole situation.
GG You really should reconsider the price for T3D compared to who has already bought the tge and tgea along with the "tools and addons" for each, considering they are garbage unless we update them ourselves.
I will be buying t3d though from what ive said, so please take note im just in surprise to business practices in which the company has gone about this. Which it should of been half the price you are selling it for if you want to be fair to the indie like your company statements say.
Anyways, just some of my thoughts.. ahh I can breath again lol.
Sorry GG, I love the products and love my team using such, just dont become like the other engine companies and go back on your word to the indie. This is the only engine place alot of us look up to. You inspire and motivate even a hobbist, just be sure your on the right path and not going off like it seems.
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#2
09/18/2009 (3:35 pm)
I actually bought T3D, having already purchased TGE and TGB along with AFX and other packs. What really got me was when GG dropped support for us non Intel Mac users. Now I have T3D that I can't actually use as I only have a G5 Quad system. I'm now a little disappointed as you can image... I even own TGEA, but unfortunately my PC died a while back.
#3
I don't really get that logic. We did not change the splash screen to a new number and up the price. There has been a significant investment in time, money, and resources. You note that you didn't ask or even care about such an investment; but a huge amount of our licensees do. They want a faster turn-around on bugs and engine issues. They want better documentation. They want to know what is happening with the engine.
We expanded the Torque 3D team to make a much better product with better support, turn-around time, and documentation than we have been able to in the past. Unfortuantely, we cannot do that for free and need to also have a sustainable business. We strongly value the members in our community who have worked hard to add valuable resources or products like AFX or GMK to further make Torque a better product.
No one is going to force you to go with Torque 3D, and we have never said that TGEA is crap as implied. A lot of work and significant updates have gone into it; from our engineers as well as dedicated community members and contractors. Will Torque 3D be out of the range of some users? Definitely. $100 or $150 or $250 or $295 were out of range for some who complained that Ogre and Crystal Space and Irrlict and id Tech 1/2/3 are free. They are; and they're good at what they do. Multiplayer level editing in Sauerbraten is a blast.
So we should not have included bug fixes or feature tweaks that were provided by the community? Or are you saying that all of the value added to Torque 3D's toolset was provided by the community for free as resources? I'm kind of lost as to where your irritation stems from on this point. Personally, as a long-time community member, I like seeing things fixed. I also like seeing them addressed quickly as we have been doing with the Beta releases of Torque 3D through our increased transparency with the developer community. This is an extreme turn-around from the early days of TGEA when many dev's became dismayed at seeing the increasing ire towards what they were doing. If you picked up TGEA during the period of silence, you know what I'm talking about. People complained loudly; we clammed up. Did it hurt us? Yes. Did it allow us to work harder with our heads down and fewer distractions? Yes.
The torque team has risen in size. We have some very, very amazing contractors working on the engine as well. The vast majority of them have come from the community and are helping make Torque 3D a better all-around product than the competition. You may not have asked to the team size to rise, but the vast majority of our licensees wanted a stronger, more stable engine with strong feedback from the development team. Which is what we have tried to do. Matt and the rest of the team have been very straight-forward and receptive to feedback, criticism, bug reports. Personally, I see that as a good thing.
But just because it's a much better product, it doesn't mean that you have to buy it. TGEA is a proven engine that can be used to develop commercial quality games. It has been and is continuing to be used on Windows, the Mac, and consoles.
@Jason
With Apple dropping all support for PPC, it is a valid choice to drop support in Torque. I like my G5; I use it for video editing because it works great for that. But I can't upgrade to the new versions of the Pro apps that are on their way because Apple dropped support for the PPC. And as much as I like my G5, I have to say that it was the right decision for them to make to move their platform forward. I can't afford a new Intel Mac to match my G5 so I bought a shiny new Intel mini. Not as powerful, but it works nicely.
09/18/2009 (6:20 pm)
I'm not quite sure where you are coming from with this other than feeling unhappy because of sticker shock. The engine is easily worth the price of admission, regardless of previous pricing. But according the to the beta logic, in your estimation Unreal, 2, and 2.5 were beta versions of Unreal 3. And id tech 1, 2, 3, and 4 are beta versions of id tech 5? At least that seems to be the argument that you are trying to make with your feelings that TGE and TGEA were beta engines for Torque 3D's release.I don't really get that logic. We did not change the splash screen to a new number and up the price. There has been a significant investment in time, money, and resources. You note that you didn't ask or even care about such an investment; but a huge amount of our licensees do. They want a faster turn-around on bugs and engine issues. They want better documentation. They want to know what is happening with the engine.
We expanded the Torque 3D team to make a much better product with better support, turn-around time, and documentation than we have been able to in the past. Unfortuantely, we cannot do that for free and need to also have a sustainable business. We strongly value the members in our community who have worked hard to add valuable resources or products like AFX or GMK to further make Torque a better product.
No one is going to force you to go with Torque 3D, and we have never said that TGEA is crap as implied. A lot of work and significant updates have gone into it; from our engineers as well as dedicated community members and contractors. Will Torque 3D be out of the range of some users? Definitely. $100 or $150 or $250 or $295 were out of range for some who complained that Ogre and Crystal Space and Irrlict and id Tech 1/2/3 are free. They are; and they're good at what they do. Multiplayer level editing in Sauerbraten is a blast.
So we should not have included bug fixes or feature tweaks that were provided by the community? Or are you saying that all of the value added to Torque 3D's toolset was provided by the community for free as resources? I'm kind of lost as to where your irritation stems from on this point. Personally, as a long-time community member, I like seeing things fixed. I also like seeing them addressed quickly as we have been doing with the Beta releases of Torque 3D through our increased transparency with the developer community. This is an extreme turn-around from the early days of TGEA when many dev's became dismayed at seeing the increasing ire towards what they were doing. If you picked up TGEA during the period of silence, you know what I'm talking about. People complained loudly; we clammed up. Did it hurt us? Yes. Did it allow us to work harder with our heads down and fewer distractions? Yes.
The torque team has risen in size. We have some very, very amazing contractors working on the engine as well. The vast majority of them have come from the community and are helping make Torque 3D a better all-around product than the competition. You may not have asked to the team size to rise, but the vast majority of our licensees wanted a stronger, more stable engine with strong feedback from the development team. Which is what we have tried to do. Matt and the rest of the team have been very straight-forward and receptive to feedback, criticism, bug reports. Personally, I see that as a good thing.
But just because it's a much better product, it doesn't mean that you have to buy it. TGEA is a proven engine that can be used to develop commercial quality games. It has been and is continuing to be used on Windows, the Mac, and consoles.
@Jason
With Apple dropping all support for PPC, it is a valid choice to drop support in Torque. I like my G5; I use it for video editing because it works great for that. But I can't upgrade to the new versions of the Pro apps that are on their way because Apple dropped support for the PPC. And as much as I like my G5, I have to say that it was the right decision for them to make to move their platform forward. I can't afford a new Intel Mac to match my G5 so I bought a shiny new Intel mini. Not as powerful, but it works nicely.
#4
09/18/2009 (6:21 pm)
Robert, you won't win any debates against GG on this stuff no matter how correct you may be. They're programmed to "spin" and "twist" situations.. it's the fault of the mind controlling nanomachines placed into the ink on their paychecks.
#5
09/18/2009 (6:23 pm)
...ink...so...tasty...
#6
@Robert, ..just imagine what the price would be if so many resources weren't mimic'd in/into T3D. Oh man, then it gets pricey-ish-er!
- Nothing is free and you don't have to buy, have a nice day though.
09/18/2009 (6:30 pm)
@David, that post was made without regards to yours. In fact, I just read the post now. @Robert, ..just imagine what the price would be if so many resources weren't mimic'd in/into T3D. Oh man, then it gets pricey-ish-er!
- Nothing is free and you don't have to buy, have a nice day though.
#8
T3D development has improved far faster and more transparently than I ever remember from the TGEA days (I didn't pay much attention to TGEA back then, probably because of all the complaining). If the 30+ blogs posted about the beta development haven't sold you on it, nothing will ;)
After buying TGEA, the next upgrade is about twice that price- I don't think it's all that bad. It might be a good chunk of money to spend for the average not-quite-gainfully employed slob (ME!), but saving up is possible if you really want something. Especially what could be seen as an investment in what you want to work with.
(DISCLAIMER: Biased because I got the best discount ever, and I have neutered my worrying-glands)
09/18/2009 (6:51 pm)
Didn't GG require (or strongly encourage) people to post engine changes in the early V12->TGE days? I'm sure the small print says they can do it anyway. I don't pay close attention to it, because I actually like them doing that. The faster the engines improve, the better.T3D development has improved far faster and more transparently than I ever remember from the TGEA days (I didn't pay much attention to TGEA back then, probably because of all the complaining). If the 30+ blogs posted about the beta development haven't sold you on it, nothing will ;)
After buying TGEA, the next upgrade is about twice that price- I don't think it's all that bad. It might be a good chunk of money to spend for the average not-quite-gainfully employed slob (ME!), but saving up is possible if you really want something. Especially what could be seen as an investment in what you want to work with.
(DISCLAIMER: Biased because I got the best discount ever, and I have neutered my worrying-glands)
#9
09/19/2009 (12:19 am)
Yes- so did they USE the customer base off the old engines to build a better one. In other words did they already plan this once they relized that we made so many resources.... Hey lets take all that free stuff people share on the resources and turn it into something they have to buy. Thats what gets me. Ok so the river editor wasnt in resources, whoop. 
#10
isnt the river editor just a variation of the road editor? (which I remember being done in tgea days as a kind of resource)
09/19/2009 (4:41 am)
today I'm the devil's advocate,isnt the river editor just a variation of the road editor? (which I remember being done in tgea days as a kind of resource)
#11
If you think even half of what has gone into Torque 3D is just community resources then you really have very little idea of what's built into Torque 3D:
- New Editors including many new ones materials, etc
- Torque Launcher
- Abstracted physics with PhysX
- Completely rewritten terrain
- Completely rewritten basic and advanced lighting
- Realtime shadows
- Collada support
- New Shiny features - SSAO, Depth of Field, etc
- Purelight integration
- River & Road Editors
- Web Publishing
And that's just the stuff I can remember from the top of my head... huge chunks have had a complete rewrite and yes there are quite a few bug fixes and resources built in from the community too but you know what all of those resources are simplistic and basic in comparison to what's been done with terrain, lighting, etc.
Torque 3D IS an update to TGEA, it's been mentioned enough times before that Torque 3D is TGEA 2.0, they've just decided to give it a different name... much the same way we now have Windows XP, Vista and errr 7, TGB will become Torque 2D... it'll help simplify the line up of products.
I can't remember exactly when TGE and TGEA were released but both have been available before I joined in 2005 and the only chargeable upgrade for either product I've had was the TGE 1.3 to TGE 1.5 one, so far I've spent:
TGE 1.3 - $100
Upgrade to TGE 1.5.2 - $50
Upgrade to TGEA $145
Upgrade to Torque 3D - $505
Thats $800 in total over a 4year period and until this year it was only $295 for 3 years -- I've a few other hobbies and I spend 10 times that amount on them, hell I spend $800 a year on a hosted server to run the game engine and $1500 every couple of years for a new PC.
And Yes $505 for the early upgrade, $700 for the current upgrade or even $1000 if you have to pay the full price would be worth the simply stunning amount of change, work, documentation, etc that's gone into Torque 3D as a product.
Nobody needs to upgrade, TGEA is a great engine, an award winning one at that more than suitable for the majority of hobbyists and for anyone serious about game development then even Torque3D's cost shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
09/19/2009 (6:47 am)
I'd like to respond to a few points here:Quote:I already bought tgea and tge which WERE NOT EVEN BUG FREENo software is EVER bug free, just the nature of the beast given the really low price both TGE and TGEA are realised at I can expect there to be more bugs... hey we spent $1,000,000+ on Oracle and $50,000,000 on SAP implementations used in companies all around the world and I still find bugs!!!
If you think even half of what has gone into Torque 3D is just community resources then you really have very little idea of what's built into Torque 3D:
- New Editors including many new ones materials, etc
- Torque Launcher
- Abstracted physics with PhysX
- Completely rewritten terrain
- Completely rewritten basic and advanced lighting
- Realtime shadows
- Collada support
- New Shiny features - SSAO, Depth of Field, etc
- Purelight integration
- River & Road Editors
- Web Publishing
And that's just the stuff I can remember from the top of my head... huge chunks have had a complete rewrite and yes there are quite a few bug fixes and resources built in from the community too but you know what all of those resources are simplistic and basic in comparison to what's been done with terrain, lighting, etc.
Quote:
GG: No TGEA is a fully functional engine which we are proud of.
Me: Then why didnt you just update the source and add in the extra effects you coded in and just call it an update?
Torque 3D IS an update to TGEA, it's been mentioned enough times before that Torque 3D is TGEA 2.0, they've just decided to give it a different name... much the same way we now have Windows XP, Vista and errr 7, TGB will become Torque 2D... it'll help simplify the line up of products.
Quote:in the package of 1.8.1 of TGEA that it gives you a T3D demoThe T3D demo inside that download is nothing to do with Torque 3D it is merely the name of the example game/level, all of the functionality you see in that level is actually stock TGEA 1.8.1 functionality.
I can't remember exactly when TGE and TGEA were released but both have been available before I joined in 2005 and the only chargeable upgrade for either product I've had was the TGE 1.3 to TGE 1.5 one, so far I've spent:
TGE 1.3 - $100
Upgrade to TGE 1.5.2 - $50
Upgrade to TGEA $145
Upgrade to Torque 3D - $505
Thats $800 in total over a 4year period and until this year it was only $295 for 3 years -- I've a few other hobbies and I spend 10 times that amount on them, hell I spend $800 a year on a hosted server to run the game engine and $1500 every couple of years for a new PC.
And Yes $505 for the early upgrade, $700 for the current upgrade or even $1000 if you have to pay the full price would be worth the simply stunning amount of change, work, documentation, etc that's gone into Torque 3D as a product.
Nobody needs to upgrade, TGEA is a great engine, an award winning one at that more than suitable for the majority of hobbyists and for anyone serious about game development then even Torque3D's cost shouldn't be too much of a stretch.
#12
Things were different in the days of TGE, TGEA... we have T3D now and the guys at GG are stronger and more resourceful than ever before. I'm sure they also have a nice budget now to spend on tech and staff to get where they need to go. This is not to say that we are not benefitting by it.
I've seen better engines with a massive price tag, and very little in the way of community or support, but these are definately for commercial games companies with the deep pockets. GG are giving us indies the opportunity to reach a stage where a percentage of us are going to make a title that hits the limelight big, with an engine that is commercial grade - better in comparison to some of the commercial engines out there today and for less. If anything it gives you industry experience to get a job that you enjoy, or at least take on a hobby. If its a hobby then T3D is not for you, unless you have the money to spend on an engine that you may only use at weekends. TGE/TGB/TGEA would be your best bet. Even a hobby can turn into something good that sells.. you only have to see some of the games out there today to realise that.
Me, I can't wait for the final stable release. From this point on I can't see T3D development work slowing down, only speeding up. Here's to the future.
09/19/2009 (6:58 am)
It's great that we see resources in the engines that are developed. Hey, If I had a resource I'd welcome it to be added, either as part of the engine or an add-on pack. Most of the add-on packs don't generate a profit anyway, they just re-coup what time and money was spent on developing them - unless of course they are that good, then yes you are bound to make a little bit from it, but just as well! Things were different in the days of TGE, TGEA... we have T3D now and the guys at GG are stronger and more resourceful than ever before. I'm sure they also have a nice budget now to spend on tech and staff to get where they need to go. This is not to say that we are not benefitting by it.
I've seen better engines with a massive price tag, and very little in the way of community or support, but these are definately for commercial games companies with the deep pockets. GG are giving us indies the opportunity to reach a stage where a percentage of us are going to make a title that hits the limelight big, with an engine that is commercial grade - better in comparison to some of the commercial engines out there today and for less. If anything it gives you industry experience to get a job that you enjoy, or at least take on a hobby. If its a hobby then T3D is not for you, unless you have the money to spend on an engine that you may only use at weekends. TGE/TGB/TGEA would be your best bet. Even a hobby can turn into something good that sells.. you only have to see some of the games out there today to realise that.
Me, I can't wait for the final stable release. From this point on I can't see T3D development work slowing down, only speeding up. Here's to the future.
#13
I wish people would stop saying that as it's complete nonsense, I'm a Hobby developer working at weekends and my free time thank you very much and Torque 3D is most definately for us tiny little guys too!!!!
I agree it might not be everyones cup of tea to spend that much on an engine but there's plenty of us hobbyists that do invest more time and money in our pleasures.
09/19/2009 (12:41 pm)
Quote:If its a hobby then T3D is not for you
I wish people would stop saying that as it's complete nonsense, I'm a Hobby developer working at weekends and my free time thank you very much and Torque 3D is most definately for us tiny little guys too!!!!
I agree it might not be everyones cup of tea to spend that much on an engine but there's plenty of us hobbyists that do invest more time and money in our pleasures.
#14
Is hobby below indie? Is a hobbyist just an indie who hasn't published anything yet? Does indie/hobbyist necessarily mean no budget to speak of? Can we call a bunch of people who've formed an actual company indies, or are they now corporate slaves of Greyface?
09/19/2009 (1:59 pm)
I'm at the hobby level when it comes to 3D dabbling (although things might be changing), and I feel T3D is worth the asking price. Now define "hobby level", everyone - I'm sure we have different ideas about that :)Is hobby below indie? Is a hobbyist just an indie who hasn't published anything yet? Does indie/hobbyist necessarily mean no budget to speak of? Can we call a bunch of people who've formed an actual company indies, or are they now corporate slaves of Greyface?
#15
I guess if you are a serious hobbiest then $1000 even for the full price would be justified if you plan on releasing a game. But spending $1000 on a game engine just to have fun, learn some game design and shelve it without releasing a game, may or may not be worth it? Personally I'd use a cheaper alternative first. How long do you think it will take to develop a complete game on your own?
Don't get me wrong I started out as a using TGE when it all started.. as a hobbiest developer, but always had my mind set of making a game to sell, but never really used it for commercial purposes (as an Indie) to make money from it until a few years after, then I didn't release my first game on TGE, upgraded to TGEA and revamped everything, now I'm on Torque 3D and I'm doing the same again but at a much quicker pace as the transition from TGEA to Torque 3D is easier. Old tech goes out of date, especially when you are looking to release a commercial game. But I guess using old tech doesn't matter that much because people will always play or pay for a good game no matter what platform it is on providing that it is still supported. Although hardcore gamers may say different.
I guess if you're in it for the long run, then invest in the best. If it's only going to be a 5 minute wonder, use a cheaper alternative until you know that you are going to stick with it.
09/19/2009 (2:42 pm)
sorry, maybe I should have made it clearer.I guess if you are a serious hobbiest then $1000 even for the full price would be justified if you plan on releasing a game. But spending $1000 on a game engine just to have fun, learn some game design and shelve it without releasing a game, may or may not be worth it? Personally I'd use a cheaper alternative first. How long do you think it will take to develop a complete game on your own?
Don't get me wrong I started out as a using TGE when it all started.. as a hobbiest developer, but always had my mind set of making a game to sell, but never really used it for commercial purposes (as an Indie) to make money from it until a few years after, then I didn't release my first game on TGE, upgraded to TGEA and revamped everything, now I'm on Torque 3D and I'm doing the same again but at a much quicker pace as the transition from TGEA to Torque 3D is easier. Old tech goes out of date, especially when you are looking to release a commercial game. But I guess using old tech doesn't matter that much because people will always play or pay for a good game no matter what platform it is on providing that it is still supported. Although hardcore gamers may say different.
I guess if you're in it for the long run, then invest in the best. If it's only going to be a 5 minute wonder, use a cheaper alternative until you know that you are going to stick with it.
#16
What bothers me, as a Mac user, is that I'm being asked to pay again for basic features and bug fixes that were supposed to be part of TGE and TGB since forever. Things like USB gamepad support, drag and drop support in TGB's editor, writing console.log to the wrong place, and so forth. I was sold products that were incomplete and buggy, and now I'm told that they'll never be finished or fixed.
A $1k upgrade for new features is understandable. Being told that spending another $1k is the only way I'll ever be able to use the full set of features that were advertised as part of the previous version(s), and for which I've already paid, is an entirely different animal. A customer who buys a defective product should not have to pay to have it replaced.
09/19/2009 (2:52 pm)
I agree that $1k is not out of range for a hobby - I know a lot of golf, motorcycle, and woodworking enthusiasts who spend far more on their hobbies. And, the new features look like they're worth it.What bothers me, as a Mac user, is that I'm being asked to pay again for basic features and bug fixes that were supposed to be part of TGE and TGB since forever. Things like USB gamepad support, drag and drop support in TGB's editor, writing console.log to the wrong place, and so forth. I was sold products that were incomplete and buggy, and now I'm told that they'll never be finished or fixed.
A $1k upgrade for new features is understandable. Being told that spending another $1k is the only way I'll ever be able to use the full set of features that were advertised as part of the previous version(s), and for which I've already paid, is an entirely different animal. A customer who buys a defective product should not have to pay to have it replaced.
#17
As for how long it would take to develop a game on your own, that's a bit like asking how long a piece of string is - games come in all sizes, lengths and complexity, I've worked in I.T. as a software developer for the last 15 yrs so I know what it takes to deliver a project or two, it would be better to suggest that those working alone and/or are new to game dev to start with a smaller project - although even saying that I've seen some astonishing amounts of work come out from a lone wolf working on many a game.
I'm lucky enough to be working in a team of 15 of us, some in it as a hobby whilst others looking to build portfolios for future game development careers.
@Ronny - Well Indie really should cover anyone making a game without funding from a publisher, that's where it started from as a term but it's helpful to distinguish between those developing games for pleasure or as a hobby and those doing it for a living or to make profit - small LLC's, etc.
It's just an easier way to define your customer base really - hobbyists are going to prefer the pricing for TGE/TGEA products where indies can afford more and need the higher end feature set.
Of course that doesn't account for those of us that sit in the middle and either have more money than sense (ME :) ) or just love our hobby enough to warrant the spend (Suppose me again)
09/19/2009 (5:56 pm)
@JulianR - Yeah I'd agree with starting out with a cheaper alternative is best, same is true with any hobby no point buying the best kit til you know it's something you're going to enjoy and stick with.As for how long it would take to develop a game on your own, that's a bit like asking how long a piece of string is - games come in all sizes, lengths and complexity, I've worked in I.T. as a software developer for the last 15 yrs so I know what it takes to deliver a project or two, it would be better to suggest that those working alone and/or are new to game dev to start with a smaller project - although even saying that I've seen some astonishing amounts of work come out from a lone wolf working on many a game.
I'm lucky enough to be working in a team of 15 of us, some in it as a hobby whilst others looking to build portfolios for future game development careers.
@Ronny - Well Indie really should cover anyone making a game without funding from a publisher, that's where it started from as a term but it's helpful to distinguish between those developing games for pleasure or as a hobby and those doing it for a living or to make profit - small LLC's, etc.
It's just an easier way to define your customer base really - hobbyists are going to prefer the pricing for TGE/TGEA products where indies can afford more and need the higher end feature set.
Of course that doesn't account for those of us that sit in the middle and either have more money than sense (ME :) ) or just love our hobby enough to warrant the spend (Suppose me again)
#18
So those who say they do this for a hobby, a few of you should not be saying that, thats what you are.
"Advanced Programmer
Advanced Scriptor/Mod
Intermediate Web Developer "
Ya thats not exactly being a hobbiest anymore andy - and being able and wanting ot buy everything as it comes out.... Ya. Im sure glad you got the money. Of course you can be on the other side of the situation outlook :)
09/20/2009 (1:24 am)
If you dont notice, the people saying 1k is a great price. Obviously have a great job and are advanced programmers or artists who have been in here for along time and usually are able to make money witht he engine either in helping, making a new game, or whatever be the case.So those who say they do this for a hobby, a few of you should not be saying that, thats what you are.
"Advanced Programmer
Advanced Scriptor/Mod
Intermediate Web Developer "
Ya thats not exactly being a hobbiest anymore andy - and being able and wanting ot buy everything as it comes out.... Ya. Im sure glad you got the money. Of course you can be on the other side of the situation outlook :)
#19
So you see that puts me squarely in the hobby category, what money you are earn or what skills you have has nothing to do with whether it's a hobby or not.
Coming from my background does give me an insight into the costs and time required to develop software though and I'll tell you now I've never understood how GG business was sustainable given that they practically gave away their products and even when you do upgrade i.e. from TGE to TGEA they discounted the entire cost you spent on TGE off of TGEA too. Certainly I can't imagine them being able to earn enough from that model to grow as a business, so in some ways its better for us if they charge a little more and can therefore afford to spend more time looking and developing new stuff.
I can tell you that Torque 3D knocks the spots off of TGEA and TGE, unfortunately I'm the only one in my team that can afford Torque 3D at the moment so as a project we'll be sticking with TGEA for the moment.
Just my opinions, others may vary
09/20/2009 (5:09 am)
My programming skills,etc come from the fact I work in I.T. developing software for the last 15yrs, having moved into a management role now at work I don't get chance to do much coding, so I have game development as a hobby that allows me to keep practised with coding - I'm not after earning any money from it, this is all purely for pleasure.So you see that puts me squarely in the hobby category, what money you are earn or what skills you have has nothing to do with whether it's a hobby or not.
Coming from my background does give me an insight into the costs and time required to develop software though and I'll tell you now I've never understood how GG business was sustainable given that they practically gave away their products and even when you do upgrade i.e. from TGE to TGEA they discounted the entire cost you spent on TGE off of TGEA too. Certainly I can't imagine them being able to earn enough from that model to grow as a business, so in some ways its better for us if they charge a little more and can therefore afford to spend more time looking and developing new stuff.
I can tell you that Torque 3D knocks the spots off of TGEA and TGE, unfortunately I'm the only one in my team that can afford Torque 3D at the moment so as a project we'll be sticking with TGEA for the moment.
Just my opinions, others may vary
#20
let me put it in easy words.
T3D IS TGEA UPDATED
Shouldnt this just be a update?
So you kept us back from good updates with tgea so you could roll all your updates into a package and just call it a new name with a new price tag. Im sorry but this is just repulsive, expecailly now that GG says... NO MORE UPDATES FOR TGEA AND TGE,...... YOU CANT BE SERIOUS. But the reason for that is... T3D is TGEA with updates.... SO
AFTER THAT Statement heres is another one which no one has mentioned...
In about 6 months what torque 3d advanced rolls out how much is that going to be? would you stop supporting T3d then too just like your doing with these products and their updates.
You see, I think im the only one who actually notices whats going on, in the end... All this is, is updates one at a time , calling is something else and putting a new price tag on it..
WHAT WILL HAPPEN.......Let me say that again... WHAT WILL HAPPEN ! ... The T3D community is going to throw out documentation... mainly because GG never or rarely does and its usually our concern to do so, which it shouldnt be. If you didnt notice the tgea documentation is from ed's book now... Funny. But anyways, This community will put out resources for about a year... or year or so... GG will then compile the resources, throw in a couple new features... and roll out another price tag. It has happend every time.
GG: I think the business practices really need to be watched, I mean it is the community mainly building your engine for you. I dont think that should be left out of thought as you keep upping the price tag.
09/20/2009 (7:15 am)
ok, I HONESTLY dont think anyone actually understands the point of view...let me put it in easy words.
T3D IS TGEA UPDATED
Shouldnt this just be a update?
So you kept us back from good updates with tgea so you could roll all your updates into a package and just call it a new name with a new price tag. Im sorry but this is just repulsive, expecailly now that GG says... NO MORE UPDATES FOR TGEA AND TGE,...... YOU CANT BE SERIOUS. But the reason for that is... T3D is TGEA with updates.... SO
AFTER THAT Statement heres is another one which no one has mentioned...
In about 6 months what torque 3d advanced rolls out how much is that going to be? would you stop supporting T3d then too just like your doing with these products and their updates.
You see, I think im the only one who actually notices whats going on, in the end... All this is, is updates one at a time , calling is something else and putting a new price tag on it..
WHAT WILL HAPPEN.......Let me say that again... WHAT WILL HAPPEN ! ... The T3D community is going to throw out documentation... mainly because GG never or rarely does and its usually our concern to do so, which it shouldnt be. If you didnt notice the tgea documentation is from ed's book now... Funny. But anyways, This community will put out resources for about a year... or year or so... GG will then compile the resources, throw in a couple new features... and roll out another price tag. It has happend every time.
GG: I think the business practices really need to be watched, I mean it is the community mainly building your engine for you. I dont think that should be left out of thought as you keep upping the price tag.
Torque Owner Robert Sutton