But I'm a level Designer
by Marvin Hawkins · in General Discussion · 08/23/2009 (5:32 pm) · 13 replies
Hello!
I've been working on my Demo reel. I would like some feed back form those of you here. I wanted to do a reel just showing my games. My school would have none of that. They basically want me to create an environment art reel instead. I have been told by several people that Level designer's don't have reels, or if they do, they look different than environment art reels. I designed my reel to show off the skills needed to be a level designer. I was told by the panel "We like what you're trying to do, but this isn't the correct format. Make an Environment Art reel instead"
It really pissed me off because I'm paying them money to help me craft MY career, not theirs. Its really annoying too, because as pure artists they don't even have a point of reference to judge me on. Although there are plenty of level design reels online. So because they don't understand it, they tell me to change it to something they do understand.
So my question is: should i tell them to shove it and keep making a level design reel? or is it a waste of time because that's not what designers show off?/No one gets a design job?
PS. This is geared more toward the mainstream but I figure lots of you have worked for game companies before. I appreciate any feed back you have.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3IM0_x5XyM
I've been working on my Demo reel. I would like some feed back form those of you here. I wanted to do a reel just showing my games. My school would have none of that. They basically want me to create an environment art reel instead. I have been told by several people that Level designer's don't have reels, or if they do, they look different than environment art reels. I designed my reel to show off the skills needed to be a level designer. I was told by the panel "We like what you're trying to do, but this isn't the correct format. Make an Environment Art reel instead"
It really pissed me off because I'm paying them money to help me craft MY career, not theirs. Its really annoying too, because as pure artists they don't even have a point of reference to judge me on. Although there are plenty of level design reels online. So because they don't understand it, they tell me to change it to something they do understand.
So my question is: should i tell them to shove it and keep making a level design reel? or is it a waste of time because that's not what designers show off?/No one gets a design job?
PS. This is geared more toward the mainstream but I figure lots of you have worked for game companies before. I appreciate any feed back you have.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3IM0_x5XyM
#2
You're paying them money to give you guidance on the right way to do things. I suggest you heed it, or your money is wasted.
08/23/2009 (7:36 pm)
Quote:It really pissed me off because I'm paying them money to help me craft MY career, not theirs
You're paying them money to give you guidance on the right way to do things. I suggest you heed it, or your money is wasted.
#3
As for my opinion on this..don't think of this as "you paying them to teach you", think of it as "you're paying them to act like it's practice runs for your soon to be new boss". ..Because no matter who is paying who, someone needs to deliver.
If you hand over a deisgn to your boss that your boss did not ask for, I am sure he won't be your boss at the end of the day unless you're dating his sister.
08/23/2009 (7:48 pm)
..go over to polycount forums and post your video there...ask for critiques. Put on your 'thick skin' and wait for some honesty. There are many many great artists there and most of them genuinely like to help with 'the harsh reality and a "you're welcome"'. I think the advice over there will set you straight. ;)As for my opinion on this..don't think of this as "you paying them to teach you", think of it as "you're paying them to act like it's practice runs for your soon to be new boss". ..Because no matter who is paying who, someone needs to deliver.
If you hand over a deisgn to your boss that your boss did not ask for, I am sure he won't be your boss at the end of the day unless you're dating his sister.
#4
08/23/2009 (7:58 pm)
Well I get that, but there are level design reels. Plus that's what I have focused my skills on. I'm okay as an artist. But If I focus my work on that I will fail. I understand that this medium is not the best way to show off what I have done. I have levels to support my work. But I have to create this reel. So logically why would I not put my best foot forward? 
#5
you want to design a level. Have you considered foliage, lighting, textures, the way the environment will be viewed from the players point of view at any given point. Do you want the player to see this view now, or is it something that you can save to increase available memory for other items. see its not just the one item in a level you have to consider. And yes there is specializations. but by considering all the variables you make yourself more well rounded in your skills, and less likely to have some texturer/lighting/enviroment/interior artist tell you , we cant use this it doesnt fit in with the level, but rather, how about if i add some detail to accent the texture/lighting postions/foilage/building placement you chose. Just some experience i have learned.
www.fantascihiddenwar.com
08/23/2009 (8:26 pm)
part of level design is attention to environment art? details? Or do i need to go to college to learn that? I think you need to take it with a grain of salt, you might find that bit of additional skill will strengthen the direction you are wanting to go. consider thisyou want to design a level. Have you considered foliage, lighting, textures, the way the environment will be viewed from the players point of view at any given point. Do you want the player to see this view now, or is it something that you can save to increase available memory for other items. see its not just the one item in a level you have to consider. And yes there is specializations. but by considering all the variables you make yourself more well rounded in your skills, and less likely to have some texturer/lighting/enviroment/interior artist tell you , we cant use this it doesnt fit in with the level, but rather, how about if i add some detail to accent the texture/lighting postions/foilage/building placement you chose. Just some experience i have learned.
www.fantascihiddenwar.com
#6
08/26/2009 (12:20 am)
Again I get it. But after talking to several Professional Level Designer's the consensus has been: You worry about Level Design/Flow/and other things, not Art.
#7
08/26/2009 (1:39 am)
imo thats whats wrong with the industry today.. You have folks that are so focused on one specific item, they cant get around other basic concepts.. Start well rounded, then focus.. i think the experience will serve you well. Imagine being a professional level designer and not only can you design a level, but that archicture course you took as a extra credit actually played into a realistic design of your level.. Dont cheat yourself of the possible experience. You might learn something that can really open your eyes that other folks that stay huddle over there desks and tell you how to level design from the air chair have missed pr simply lost the ability to think for themselves inside thier cubicle. 
#8
08/26/2009 (10:02 am)
The answer here is simple. Make both. Make the one to satisfy your class requirements so you don't screwed over on your grades and continue working on the other for when you actually start pounding the pavement. 
#9
# Model, texture and polish interior and exterior architecture and world objects (organic and manmade) based on conceptual artwork and reference photography.
# Create high resolution/detail texture maps and texture sets for multi-pass rendering (normal/bump, diffuse, specular, etc.).
# Develop efficient collision models for static and dynamic environmental objects for use in physics system.
# Develop realistic and fantastical environmental FX to increase player immersion by utilizing particle/beam and multi-pass rendering systems.
# Develop target models for LOD system when relevant to game performance.
# Proactively problem solve asset and content pipeline issues when necessary, and collaborate with Art leads to improve efficiencies.
And a Level designers responsibilities from the same studio
* Design interesting and exciting level flow and mission event planning in conjunction with the Lead Level Designer, and in support of the overall game design.
* Build the level architecture from early prototype blockout through to final polish, using Editor building and lighting tools, as well as assets provided by the art department.
* Work in tandem with Technical Level Designers (Scripters) to create all manner of gameplay execution and visual polish.
* Ensure technical efficiency of his/her levels.
To me a demo reel is almost unneccissary for a level designer as such reels traditionaly are used to show off art work for the artist. A level designer typically is asked to submit a playable level. However for a class such as you are taking perhaps polished architectual piece are more appropriate for the real.
08/26/2009 (12:59 pm)
I think a large confusion that is generated here is the difference between a level designer and an environment artist. They are two very different individuals and have different job descriptions in many studios, though in many such as blizzard (at least it used to be not sure if it is still so) they are one and the same. for example here is a list of environment artist required responsibilities for one such studio# Model, texture and polish interior and exterior architecture and world objects (organic and manmade) based on conceptual artwork and reference photography.
# Create high resolution/detail texture maps and texture sets for multi-pass rendering (normal/bump, diffuse, specular, etc.).
# Develop efficient collision models for static and dynamic environmental objects for use in physics system.
# Develop realistic and fantastical environmental FX to increase player immersion by utilizing particle/beam and multi-pass rendering systems.
# Develop target models for LOD system when relevant to game performance.
# Proactively problem solve asset and content pipeline issues when necessary, and collaborate with Art leads to improve efficiencies.
And a Level designers responsibilities from the same studio
* Design interesting and exciting level flow and mission event planning in conjunction with the Lead Level Designer, and in support of the overall game design.
* Build the level architecture from early prototype blockout through to final polish, using Editor building and lighting tools, as well as assets provided by the art department.
* Work in tandem with Technical Level Designers (Scripters) to create all manner of gameplay execution and visual polish.
* Ensure technical efficiency of his/her levels.
To me a demo reel is almost unneccissary for a level designer as such reels traditionaly are used to show off art work for the artist. A level designer typically is asked to submit a playable level. However for a class such as you are taking perhaps polished architectual piece are more appropriate for the real.
#10
So I'm used to seeing blocked out levels that demonstrate gameplay and are not finished "visually". So your reel doesn't seem odd to me.
But that being said I understand where your school is coming from, I also attended one of these "fine" private art schools. Basically they want you to do environment art, because for the most part students are extremely lucky to get a job as a junior artist modeling props or set decking environments for level designers (placing props). Very few students do find work out of school as a level designer unless they have a very good reel. Your reel does demonstrate some of the things a level designer reel would. (most students just record people playing the map and killing each other... noone wants to see people fragging each other they want to see the design behind the gameplay.
My comments about your reel.
Contact info at the start, I'd lose the bars/nameplate thing it is a big turnoff. You are not selling yourself as an artist and if you were visually it's not very pleasing. Use the same as you do at the end a black screen with text.
The camera should be more smooth, maybe set it up on a track (simple matinee) that goes through the level instead of having it record based on your movements.
You really need to show off your level layout designs sketches in a very polished manner. The 2d map drawings need to be a work of art on their own. You should also provide Design documents that describe gameplay. Demo reels themselves are about as much work as a level you are making. you need to learn how to use the tools to make a good presentation or find someone to help you.
The modeling in maya stuff and the placement of half finished assets in your levels takes away from what you are trying to show. I find it distracting and keep focusing on the partially textured art instead of the overall design of the level.
You need to demonstrate your ability to script events. Level design is more then just blocking out a level. Since you are using unreal3 you should be able to learn some kismet. Show off some events that you might see during singleplayer anyone can make a deathmatch level.
Trim it down and add polish, Most people stop watching after the first 15 seconds if they don't like what they see. 60 seconds of good polished video is better then 3 minutes of not so polished video.
Ideally you would want to show off your finished level with finished art so that it looks all nice and pretty, remember it's usually Human Resources looking at your reel, and for the most part they don't know anything about mechanics and gameplay.
My suggestion for you is don't give up, if you don't want to be an environment artist, then don't. but you really need to have solid design, and a polished presentation to sell yourself. Some people I know just used stock unreal assets in their levels, as long as you state the assets are from unreal, you can show off your designs and make them look great at the same time. Just make it very clear that the art is not yours...
Damn this ended up being a long post, I hope it was constructive.
08/27/2009 (6:24 pm)
I've worked on various games for Wii, XBox360, and PS3.So I'm used to seeing blocked out levels that demonstrate gameplay and are not finished "visually". So your reel doesn't seem odd to me.
But that being said I understand where your school is coming from, I also attended one of these "fine" private art schools. Basically they want you to do environment art, because for the most part students are extremely lucky to get a job as a junior artist modeling props or set decking environments for level designers (placing props). Very few students do find work out of school as a level designer unless they have a very good reel. Your reel does demonstrate some of the things a level designer reel would. (most students just record people playing the map and killing each other... noone wants to see people fragging each other they want to see the design behind the gameplay.
My comments about your reel.
Contact info at the start, I'd lose the bars/nameplate thing it is a big turnoff. You are not selling yourself as an artist and if you were visually it's not very pleasing. Use the same as you do at the end a black screen with text.
The camera should be more smooth, maybe set it up on a track (simple matinee) that goes through the level instead of having it record based on your movements.
You really need to show off your level layout designs sketches in a very polished manner. The 2d map drawings need to be a work of art on their own. You should also provide Design documents that describe gameplay. Demo reels themselves are about as much work as a level you are making. you need to learn how to use the tools to make a good presentation or find someone to help you.
The modeling in maya stuff and the placement of half finished assets in your levels takes away from what you are trying to show. I find it distracting and keep focusing on the partially textured art instead of the overall design of the level.
You need to demonstrate your ability to script events. Level design is more then just blocking out a level. Since you are using unreal3 you should be able to learn some kismet. Show off some events that you might see during singleplayer anyone can make a deathmatch level.
Trim it down and add polish, Most people stop watching after the first 15 seconds if they don't like what they see. 60 seconds of good polished video is better then 3 minutes of not so polished video.
Ideally you would want to show off your finished level with finished art so that it looks all nice and pretty, remember it's usually Human Resources looking at your reel, and for the most part they don't know anything about mechanics and gameplay.
My suggestion for you is don't give up, if you don't want to be an environment artist, then don't. but you really need to have solid design, and a polished presentation to sell yourself. Some people I know just used stock unreal assets in their levels, as long as you state the assets are from unreal, you can show off your designs and make them look great at the same time. Just make it very clear that the art is not yours...
Damn this ended up being a long post, I hope it was constructive.
#11
Ken, I've heard that sentiment echoed a few times (Level Designers don't need reels as much) I that me getting a job in this field will require experience completing stuff on teams. I have a little bit under my belt, and post graduation that's my mission.
Thanks for the critiques, they're very insightful. I'm still working on this so expect a revision posted soon. Thanks alot guys I appreciate it!
08/27/2009 (10:15 pm)
Scott, Will and Ken, Thanks for the advice. I can see where you all are coming from. I'm taking the time now to make my artwrok and sketches prettier. Like you said, Will, when people can't see design they basically default to what looks bad vs. what looks good.Ken, I've heard that sentiment echoed a few times (Level Designers don't need reels as much) I that me getting a job in this field will require experience completing stuff on teams. I have a little bit under my belt, and post graduation that's my mission.
Thanks for the critiques, they're very insightful. I'm still working on this so expect a revision posted soon. Thanks alot guys I appreciate it!
Torque Owner Teromous
Most of the companies that I see hiring level designers, want you to include a map or a mod relative to their engine. For example, Blizzard might ask you to make a WC3 map that has scripted cut-scenes and events, use of triggers, etc. This is where you show off your skills at scripting and game design. They want to be able to play the game and test it out. Including that in your demo reel is wasted space.