Plan for Phil Carlisle

#1 The problem I have with the 2d approach is that it seems too much like "this is information Im giving to the player. It doesnt seem like its there cause it has to be there, rather than an actual part of the experience.

Have you thought of having something 3d with the counter built into it. This is just right off the top of my head, but what if there was just this meter on a stand or something like that would visually change (a bar with a red/yellow/green gradient or a little needle/circle combination) with the amount of sheep that pass an obstacle.

A meter on a stand probably isnt the best approach, either, but the point is that I think something that was actually part of the game world might serve the aesthetic better.

#2 Phil,

I think the only thing that just doesn't "feel" right for me is that it isn't immediately obvious that the "10/6 sheep" isn't somehow connected to the 3D location. It needs some grounding either with a shadow or perhaps the sheep being a billboard e.g. with a post in the ground with a board (possibly sheep shaped) with the numbers on it. The problem here would be occlusion, for instance if you were to view from the other side of the barn.

Will you have more than one Pen? If not, why not just a standard GUI element?

What about having some fixture that's always next to the pens and is always prominent enough to show figures, something similar to the barn roof perhaps?

Would a ground aligned quad be able better. Guess this depends on how close to the ground the camera can get.

Just some ideas anyway.

- Melv.

#3 I think that at least part of the information you want to display is clearly visible. The number of sheep in the fence can be gauged just by a quick glance. And the number of sheep still outside at least tells you that you have more to go. What about only displaying the counts when a sheep passes through the obstacle. You could in fact, have some kind of floating counter that gets created for each sheep that passes the obstacle. It could float upwards in a side to side motion, then after a few seconds it can dissapear. So each time you get a sheep past the obstacle, you see how many you have done, and how many are left to do. Also it makes it very clear when a sheep passes through the obstacle since it will start floating right above that spot. Visually it helps the player know, 'Ah, I just got the sheep where I'm supposed to. And I have X number to go'.

Not sure if I explained that properly. Just a quick thought on it.

By the way, I really wanted to do a kinda sheep dog type of game. I thought it would be fun, and obviously you are having fun with it! Can't wait to play this thing myself.

Edit: Dang it, Melv beat me to the punch. Melv is everywhere!!!

#4 Melv: Tom suggested a billboarded mesh too. I guess that would kinda make sense and would scale properly with the environment (i.e. no issues of controlling the billboards scale.

Actually, i guess one of those old hit-power meters like you would get at a fun fair where you hit it at the bottom with a sledge hammer and a peice of metal moves upwards..

Kinda like a stand-up thermometer!

That kinda makes sense.

David: Yeah, I toyed with the floaty sheep idea. But how do you show how many are left? sure, you create a floaty icon for each one you collect, but what does that icon display?

#5 You might also want to add foxes, wolves etc, that try to steal the sheep. I can see hurding getting fairly boring after a while if all you do is hurd them into a pen.

The same rules that apply to the sheep can apply to the foxes and wolves (until they grab a sheep that is! Then they just high tail it for the wall and safety. Touching the fox or wolf while it has a sheep can result in a fisticuffs smoke ball and the eventual angelic death of the fox/wolf (cartoon style) and the freedom of the sheep.

Bah ignore me what do i know..... ;o)

#6 Peter: all in good time :) I'm merely posting about the "non harmful" elements so far... the harmful ones to follow.

#7 How about modifying the color of the object that you are trying to herd the sheep into as the count goes up? In the above example, once they approach the small pen, the fence around it (or some portion of the fence) might start off a dark red, and as each sheep is corralled (sp?), the color would move towards a bright green.

Combine this with a mouseover tooltip baloon giving the exact number current/needed, and I think you'd have a visually appealing and intuitive indicator to the player.

#8 Ever played Jet Set Radio? The Dreamcast original, not the unfortunate XBox remake. There are various walls and billboards you have to tag, and some of them are large and require various combinations of controller strokes to complete. From a distance, all incomplete tags have a big red arrow over them, informing you that there's still work to do. Get a bit closer, and you can see by visual inspection how much paint you've put on the wall.

If you properly designed your pens, you could have a similar system. Each sheep, once in the pen, could move to a rigidly defined location, so that as sheep were added the effect would be of grid squares filling in. Visual inspection would tell you, "Oh, I've got about 5 sheep left to go in that pen." Meanwhile, hovering arrows could tell you which pens to inspect :)

But, on the other hand, if I remember correctly from previous .plans you also have various devices that the sheep must pass through. Perhaps they could just have arrows, with a floaty "sheep remaining" that appears when the sheep pass? Maybe even color-changing arrows, red at first, yellow when 5 or less remain, and green when only one more sheep is needed?

#9 Stephan: I'm not sure that colouring the objects would work so well.

The tooltip baloon thingy is worth trying though.

Alan: i tried the "rigid location of the sheep" thing and it just didnt feel right. Its like the sheep become too much like drones.

#10 My issue isn't with the concept, but the presentation. The graphic seems overly large, which also makes it seem somewhat independent of the pen. Perhaps a smaller graphic visibly oriented to the door to the pen would help. It seems to be a placement issue for me. I looked at it and thought "that's not right", and having seen a number of .plans, I have a good idea what you're going for (whether or not my suggestions will help with that is another story).

I like the idea of physical orientation, but I'd be hesitant about making it a part of the physical geometry because right now it's clear that it's an indicator and works very well for the look an feel of the game (with correct sizing and placement). Updating a mesh as a piece of the fence or a signpost, while immersive in some titles, would be a bit muddled from what I've seen in this (how close do they have to get to see it, do they have to be oriented a certain way or will the signpost turn to face them--perhaps bouncing like a pogo stick). Hmm. Actually, maybe that's not such a bad idea.

Alan brought up a great point about Jet Grind/Set Radio and its indicators. It could be as simple as adding complete and incomplete icons, and the closer you get the more information that is displayed. Adding a mini-map to the mission with red indicators for incomplete sections could also be a big help.

Just thinking out loud here at work this morning. Ignore me.

#11 Having an effect when the number is changed will make a big difference.

For example, when the sheep goes to the pen, a ghosted sheep _quickly_ floats up to the number in a (non-straight) path shrinking as it does. When it hits the number, the number will glow/resize/bump as it increments, of course with an appropriate ding sound.

People live for dings... You know the clickers for dog training, well I think it definitely works on humans :)

#12 I think it should be counted/required not required/counted. Unless in this screen only 6 were required but 10 were counted. Fractions have the part/whole not whole/part.

#13 @Phil, I was just thinking the number of sheep counted / number of sheep required.

Hmmm, also the idea of having a number right beside the entrance that counts the number you have left. This is how Ratchet & Clank works. It just has a # right above a little entrance where you have to send that certain number of robots through.

#14 @Phil

I would suggest the following.

First off, instead of a giant sheep, why not just a simple target with a downward pointing arror underneath. The target can even have a number in the center of it, which decreases as more sheep are coraled.

Secondly, Have the target rotate so that the number required will always, eventually be visible no matter what direction you are looking at the pen from.

#15 Didn't Pikimin for the Gamecube have to convey this type info too. I remember watching the kids play it and they would need like 20 pikmin to accomplish some task. Didn't they just use a "5/20" type text display?

#16 Kevin: yeah, they did.. which is pretty much what Ive got there (in rought programmer art form).

I think I'll try the DTS based version of it next.. see if that helps.

Blake: I know it doesnt look right as a fraction, but it feels better having the counted part on the right for me ;)

#17 @Phil: damn brits, not only do they drive on the wrong side, they even do fractions on the wrong side! /duck

#18 So, Phil.. how about having a progress bar float over the pen (like in RTS games for health of a unit) and when the number of successful sheep are in the pen the gate closes to show "No more, please!"

- Brett

#19 @Stephen: oooh, that's fighting talk where I come from. :) That's just Phil perpetuating the myth that we do things backwards. ;)

- Melv.

#20 How about outlines of sheep on the barn kind of like a WWII flying ace puts on his plane when he shoots a plane down and then when they get a sheep in the outline fill-ins with a different color. Then the sheep above and beyond collection could be in a special gold color.

Sorry if I'm repeating an idea... I didn't read all the comments.