Plan for Jeff Tunnell
by Jeff Tunnell · 02/28/2002 (9:03 pm) · 66 comments
Don't get me wrong, I'm very pleased with GarageGames as a community. Many people are coming together, forming teams, contributing to the community, contributing to the Torque code base, and generally making this the best indie game development site in the world. So, that part of our original plan is working.
However, I just don't see the raw creativity that I was hoping for when we first envisioned GarageGames. Two and a half years ago, we would sit around in a beer induced fog and imagine the hundreds of different types of games that could come about if we could simply knock down the technology barriers game developers were up against.
But, when I look through the hundreds of products in development, I pretty much see the same old thing. Mostly I see RPG with a twist, FPS with a smaller twist, or MMPxxx.
Maybe I'm expecting too much too soon, but let's get the juices flowing. Don't think big, think creatively. Where are the turn based games, what about some form of sports, outdoor sports, 3D pinball games, forest simulations, animal simulators, anything but FPS action....
What about a filght simulator, but instead of planes, the flyers are birds or insects? How about a casino game, but allow the players to walk into a building, sit down at a table and deal the cards? Theme parks, but with a twist. Mini-golf in a virtual setting. A train set simulator with 100 people per set running trains and setting up the track.
Captain Zap and Frank Bignone's game are examples of bending tradition a little, but we need even more experimentation. Of course we welcome all of the games, and we have many great looking FPS, RPG, and MMOGs in development. I'm just trying to get everybody to think about pushing the envelope a little or even a lot.
Comments welcome.
Jeff Tunnell GG
However, I just don't see the raw creativity that I was hoping for when we first envisioned GarageGames. Two and a half years ago, we would sit around in a beer induced fog and imagine the hundreds of different types of games that could come about if we could simply knock down the technology barriers game developers were up against.
But, when I look through the hundreds of products in development, I pretty much see the same old thing. Mostly I see RPG with a twist, FPS with a smaller twist, or MMPxxx.
Maybe I'm expecting too much too soon, but let's get the juices flowing. Don't think big, think creatively. Where are the turn based games, what about some form of sports, outdoor sports, 3D pinball games, forest simulations, animal simulators, anything but FPS action....
What about a filght simulator, but instead of planes, the flyers are birds or insects? How about a casino game, but allow the players to walk into a building, sit down at a table and deal the cards? Theme parks, but with a twist. Mini-golf in a virtual setting. A train set simulator with 100 people per set running trains and setting up the track.
Captain Zap and Frank Bignone's game are examples of bending tradition a little, but we need even more experimentation. Of course we welcome all of the games, and we have many great looking FPS, RPG, and MMOGs in development. I'm just trying to get everybody to think about pushing the envelope a little or even a lot.
Comments welcome.
Jeff Tunnell GG
About the author
#2
Unfortunatly it's just a problem thinking big, I like to think big, I just don't like to make big, lol.
I don't know, it's just a negative affect happening with the entire industry, so you can't really blaim the indie developers for getting sucked in it too. Just look at what sells, you see another FPS that is same as the last released, yet it's a chart topper, so obviously people will follow.
Then there is the problem of innovation for the sake of innovation(Recent example would be some ex-Dynamix guys making a game called Pornstar3d, or something like that, and it is about Bill Clinton, I mean what is up with that?.)
And, coincidently this came up, would be an example of Warcraft III.
"We've felt that the RTS genre has been taken as far as it can go right now" - Rob Pardo, Blizzard Entertainment.
Yet, I am playing Warcraft III, and other then very minor differences and the fact it is 3d(which still confuses me since there is no zoom or rotate) it is basically Warcraft 2 that was done in 1996.
They tried to go the innovative route with the Role-Playing Strategy instead of just adding more units, features, etc...(coughEmpireEarthcough), but any innovation was long sucked out of this title because people want more of the same. Still fun to play around with, but it's the same fun I was having in '96 and for that reason I can't find myself wanting to play the game.
Dissapointing really.
Anyway, back on track, I really am hoping to see some interesting titles in GG, but know that it will take awhile, just let the first gen stuff pass and we'll see what happens.
02/28/2002 (9:59 pm)
Amen, in fact, I think my last plan was on this, lol.Unfortunatly it's just a problem thinking big, I like to think big, I just don't like to make big, lol.
I don't know, it's just a negative affect happening with the entire industry, so you can't really blaim the indie developers for getting sucked in it too. Just look at what sells, you see another FPS that is same as the last released, yet it's a chart topper, so obviously people will follow.
Then there is the problem of innovation for the sake of innovation(Recent example would be some ex-Dynamix guys making a game called Pornstar3d, or something like that, and it is about Bill Clinton, I mean what is up with that?.)
And, coincidently this came up, would be an example of Warcraft III.
"We've felt that the RTS genre has been taken as far as it can go right now" - Rob Pardo, Blizzard Entertainment.
Yet, I am playing Warcraft III, and other then very minor differences and the fact it is 3d(which still confuses me since there is no zoom or rotate) it is basically Warcraft 2 that was done in 1996.
They tried to go the innovative route with the Role-Playing Strategy instead of just adding more units, features, etc...(coughEmpireEarthcough), but any innovation was long sucked out of this title because people want more of the same. Still fun to play around with, but it's the same fun I was having in '96 and for that reason I can't find myself wanting to play the game.
Dissapointing really.
Anyway, back on track, I really am hoping to see some interesting titles in GG, but know that it will take awhile, just let the first gen stuff pass and we'll see what happens.
#3
03/01/2002 (12:28 am)
hum hum, thanks ;)
#4
I know if I get the free time, I have quite a few ideas in the "say what?" realm I'd like to try with low risk (torque for $100 is pretty low risk), if I can rally support.
03/01/2002 (1:05 am)
I think a large group of people here are using GG as an "in" to doing something professionally. Thus, they try to make the strongest game they can. I know if I get the free time, I have quite a few ideas in the "say what?" realm I'd like to try with low risk (torque for $100 is pretty low risk), if I can rally support.
#5
I am here and now placing a bet that Dog of Prey is going to be so much ass kicking fun compared to 99% of the MMORPG or FPS games in development here.
Zap's another story altogether. We are sort of "free form" with it for now, until the main characters are sorted. I know we'll be having some pretty insane action, but the game styles will include a lot of variety. Hell, the original concept was an Alien Zoo-keeping game :)) I'd say that was pretty far out.
Phil.
03/01/2002 (1:31 am)
I say its a good thing Jeff, for every MMORPG or FPS action game people want to make (and thats the sheep mentality Ive already ranted on about) the more fun we get from truly off the wall games!I am here and now placing a bet that Dog of Prey is going to be so much ass kicking fun compared to 99% of the MMORPG or FPS games in development here.
Zap's another story altogether. We are sort of "free form" with it for now, until the main characters are sorted. I know we'll be having some pretty insane action, but the game styles will include a lot of variety. Hell, the original concept was an Alien Zoo-keeping game :)) I'd say that was pretty far out.
Phil.
#6
2. Most of these guys are just getting their feet wet, many times you need to do what has been done before you can manage to do something thats never been done before.
3. Teams are just starting to form, so a first undertaking or two might need to be taken care of before something totally wet and wild hits the floor.
4. My first crazy idea was pinned down when hardcore was kicked off the table. kthnx.
5. How about incentives to make different games in different genres? Variety d00d?!
***6. Several of these teams are trying to get a foot in the industry door, and whether or not garage games is going to attempt to publish these games, familiar games will help sell themselves. Something totally trippy is a chance, and while some of us here have balls the size of planets, some of us would rather not bounce on them for transportation after that 1-2yrs of hardcore work doesnt work out because we took the chance. This combined with 1-5 above doesnt make something terribly unique a clear option for too many of us.. In fact, some of us are just on teams because going it solo would suck, or had already been working on a game long ago and were just trying to finish it up/complete it with Torque.
Conclude this dude:
You want a real view from the dark side of noob, there you have it. Give your baby some time to blossom, dont expect him to run the first few months.. dont expect him to wrestle for a few years- but feed him spinach.
03/01/2002 (6:04 am)
1. Yes, too much too soon.2. Most of these guys are just getting their feet wet, many times you need to do what has been done before you can manage to do something thats never been done before.
3. Teams are just starting to form, so a first undertaking or two might need to be taken care of before something totally wet and wild hits the floor.
4. My first crazy idea was pinned down when hardcore was kicked off the table. kthnx.
5. How about incentives to make different games in different genres? Variety d00d?!
***6. Several of these teams are trying to get a foot in the industry door, and whether or not garage games is going to attempt to publish these games, familiar games will help sell themselves. Something totally trippy is a chance, and while some of us here have balls the size of planets, some of us would rather not bounce on them for transportation after that 1-2yrs of hardcore work doesnt work out because we took the chance. This combined with 1-5 above doesnt make something terribly unique a clear option for too many of us.. In fact, some of us are just on teams because going it solo would suck, or had already been working on a game long ago and were just trying to finish it up/complete it with Torque.
Conclude this dude:
You want a real view from the dark side of noob, there you have it. Give your baby some time to blossom, dont expect him to run the first few months.. dont expect him to wrestle for a few years- but feed him spinach.
#7
As far as the community not having alot of variation in game design. Although I don't have the liscense yet. I think that can be credited to people not being totally comfortable with the tools yet. I think after a while people will become more comfortable and feel the need to explore some different types of game ideas.
03/01/2002 (6:08 am)
Anyone remember Mutant League Football and Hockey from EA on Sega Genesis. Those were fun little games. Why not try something similar using Torque?As far as the community not having alot of variation in game design. Although I don't have the liscense yet. I think that can be credited to people not being totally comfortable with the tools yet. I think after a while people will become more comfortable and feel the need to explore some different types of game ideas.
#8
If you can get to the end of the project, you have proven to yourself, and others, that you can finish something you start. You also now have the experience and knowledge necessary to tackle something a little more off-beat, and now you can focus hard on the game idea/design itself.
I think that it is fine to push groups to think outside the box. I'd like nothing better than to see some really cool and unique games come out of this site. I actually really like the idea of a theme park type game with TGE - interesting possibilities there.
It would be very easy to read this .plan, though, and get discouraged if you believe your project falls into the apparently less-than-desirable grouping of "RPG with a twist, FPS with a smaller twist". That's a tough pill to swallow when you consider all of the hard work involved, usually by people with full time jobs and/or college, kids, and in addition some kind of social life.
03/01/2002 (7:26 am)
I would say that when trying to soak up something as large as the TGE, one of the best ways to attack it is to start with what you know. That's why people start with RPG/FPS - especially FPS, as this engine is really geared towards FPS right out of the box. You start with what you know, you tackle all of the myriad aspects of game development (coming up with an idea, trying to write up the design, getting a team together). You then desperately try to keep that team together for the long haul and finish up the project. If you can get to the end of the project, you have proven to yourself, and others, that you can finish something you start. You also now have the experience and knowledge necessary to tackle something a little more off-beat, and now you can focus hard on the game idea/design itself.
I think that it is fine to push groups to think outside the box. I'd like nothing better than to see some really cool and unique games come out of this site. I actually really like the idea of a theme park type game with TGE - interesting possibilities there.
It would be very easy to read this .plan, though, and get discouraged if you believe your project falls into the apparently less-than-desirable grouping of "RPG with a twist, FPS with a smaller twist". That's a tough pill to swallow when you consider all of the hard work involved, usually by people with full time jobs and/or college, kids, and in addition some kind of social life.
#9
You are missing my point which is doing the same old thing is much more risky than doing something different. If you are an independent and create yet another FPS, what is going to sell your product? However, if you come up with something different, your game just might get picked up for coverage in the New York Times, or Newsweek, or any number of web sites.
Here's a little story. Back in the day, an unknown, indie company had a cute little program that was extremely fun to play, but had been turned down by all the major publishers because it was not a flight sim or RPG, which were the big sellers at the time. However, the company kept at it, and eventually they landed a two paragraph mention along with a small screen shot in Newsweek (or Time, I can't remember), causing their sales to rocket, topping the charts. The company was Maxis and the product was Sim City.
Look at the charts today. The Sims, Roller Coaster Tycoon, and other products GG'ers are totally ignoring. These products went against the grain when they were created, and it allowed them to stand out.
Contrast that to the latest, greatest FPS or RPG that makes lots of headlines in the game rags. Most of them are not even cracking the top 20, and even if they do it is for a period of days, not weeks or months or years.
In my own experience, going against the grain has outsold the tried and true, and is what allowed Dynamix to survive for 17 years in a constantly changing, hostile game market (but that is a different story).
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/01/2002 (7:36 am)
Don,You are missing my point which is doing the same old thing is much more risky than doing something different. If you are an independent and create yet another FPS, what is going to sell your product? However, if you come up with something different, your game just might get picked up for coverage in the New York Times, or Newsweek, or any number of web sites.
Here's a little story. Back in the day, an unknown, indie company had a cute little program that was extremely fun to play, but had been turned down by all the major publishers because it was not a flight sim or RPG, which were the big sellers at the time. However, the company kept at it, and eventually they landed a two paragraph mention along with a small screen shot in Newsweek (or Time, I can't remember), causing their sales to rocket, topping the charts. The company was Maxis and the product was Sim City.
Look at the charts today. The Sims, Roller Coaster Tycoon, and other products GG'ers are totally ignoring. These products went against the grain when they were created, and it allowed them to stand out.
Contrast that to the latest, greatest FPS or RPG that makes lots of headlines in the game rags. Most of them are not even cracking the top 20, and even if they do it is for a period of days, not weeks or months or years.
In my own experience, going against the grain has outsold the tried and true, and is what allowed Dynamix to survive for 17 years in a constantly changing, hostile game market (but that is a different story).
Jeff Tunnell GG
#10
03/01/2002 (7:37 am)
Well I'm very Happy to say I'm concetrating on using Torque for educational purposes. I know I can't match up in programming skillz but I sure can do some nice art. That is why I posted about making virtual books (I do belive you liked that Idea). I also have another "ace" up my sleeve but I'm hiding that one till a solid deal is formed on my side. I can't say how happt I am thay you all gave us this opportunity. I hope you make you all rich.
#11
There are a million ways to exploit an FPS engine that do not fall into standard categories. In fact, I think putting creative thought into the type of game you are going to create actually makes development much easier than following the tried and true path.
Also, If you read what I said, I think there are some really nice FPS and RPG titles being created on GG. We need those as well as the off-the-wall titles in order to make GG a success.
Saying that my post is going to discourage people that are working hard is kind of like saying that I shouldn't be honest, or state my opinion about what I think it takes to be successful. If we really are going to be GarageGAMES, then I think I need to speak out. Otherwise, we would have to change the name to GarageRESUMEbuilder.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/01/2002 (7:43 am)
Dave,There are a million ways to exploit an FPS engine that do not fall into standard categories. In fact, I think putting creative thought into the type of game you are going to create actually makes development much easier than following the tried and true path.
Also, If you read what I said, I think there are some really nice FPS and RPG titles being created on GG. We need those as well as the off-the-wall titles in order to make GG a success.
Saying that my post is going to discourage people that are working hard is kind of like saying that I shouldn't be honest, or state my opinion about what I think it takes to be successful. If we really are going to be GarageGAMES, then I think I need to speak out. Otherwise, we would have to change the name to GarageRESUMEbuilder.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#12
Innovative games will bring in a large audience that will hopefully encourage these casual gamers to look deeper into more of the hardcore games that GG will provide. As much as we hate it as hardcore gamers, we need the casual gamer in order for the hardcore games to survive.
*Comment* By innovative, I don't mean that the games people are working on are not innovative. There are some games I'm really looking forward to. By innovative I mean out of the norm. A quirky little addictive game. Not something huge and out of the scope of your resources. Like Jeff said Think creative not Big.
03/01/2002 (8:17 am)
I think what Jeff is saying is that we DO need FPS and RPG's because they will bring in the hardcore gamers but, the community is going to have to be more innovative in game design approach to bring in the casual gamer(aka the real money) Not that this is only about money. We need fun different games. Look at the success of games like atomica and that puzzler bejeweled. The Sims was also innovative. It wasn't my kind of game but it was different and I noticed it and bought it.Innovative games will bring in a large audience that will hopefully encourage these casual gamers to look deeper into more of the hardcore games that GG will provide. As much as we hate it as hardcore gamers, we need the casual gamer in order for the hardcore games to survive.
*Comment* By innovative, I don't mean that the games people are working on are not innovative. There are some games I'm really looking forward to. By innovative I mean out of the norm. A quirky little addictive game. Not something huge and out of the scope of your resources. Like Jeff said Think creative not Big.
#13
I've been mulling over how to do it, and I'm a little stumped for answers. Possibly someone could start a design project here that is not at first concerned about the engine at all. It would be similar to the TCP projects Phil came up with. Focus on brainstorming at first for a list of good ideas. Then move to the next step of choosing an idea and then brainstorming all of the possibilities for that single idea. Feedback from the folks who have true game development experience would be helpful at this early stage.
Flesh out the game design, again taking constructive criticism from GG, Phil, and others with game dev experience. Only THEN, once a good game design foundation has been built start building a dev team to make it a reality.
Having not built a game from the ground up, I'm just throwing an idea out there, so take it with a grain of salt. ;)
03/01/2002 (8:46 am)
I am assuming that the type of comments that you want here are more than just the "I agree" or "I disagree" variety, right Jeff? So, maybe one thing we could try to do is come up with suggestions on how to get some groups thinking outside of the box and to tackle a project such as you have suggested. How would we best be able to do that? Simply leave it up to someone to read this .plan and then implement? Or try to get something started here on GG that will get people heading in that direction? I've been mulling over how to do it, and I'm a little stumped for answers. Possibly someone could start a design project here that is not at first concerned about the engine at all. It would be similar to the TCP projects Phil came up with. Focus on brainstorming at first for a list of good ideas. Then move to the next step of choosing an idea and then brainstorming all of the possibilities for that single idea. Feedback from the folks who have true game development experience would be helpful at this early stage.
Flesh out the game design, again taking constructive criticism from GG, Phil, and others with game dev experience. Only THEN, once a good game design foundation has been built start building a dev team to make it a reality.
Having not built a game from the ground up, I'm just throwing an idea out there, so take it with a grain of salt. ;)
#14
I also think that alot of uf are still in the new phase of this media...meaning if you look at 3d artists demo-reels, you'll see alot of ninja's, orc's, knights, and the like. But what we really want to see is the more creative side: colorfull environments, something more original than the standard fare of whats popular now.
I cant claim to have broken any new ground, (and i cant say that I havent gotten the orc out of my portfolio)but alot of the games that are being developed, are the same games that we play as gamers.
I do want to see more creative games, and i think thatll happen when some of the excess has been trimmed.
03/01/2002 (8:58 am)
I agree with alot of whats being said here. I do see massive amounts of MMOG's, and RPG's. I think that Garage developers are still making (or attempting) games that they want to play, not exploiting a genre or building a new one. I also think that alot of uf are still in the new phase of this media...meaning if you look at 3d artists demo-reels, you'll see alot of ninja's, orc's, knights, and the like. But what we really want to see is the more creative side: colorfull environments, something more original than the standard fare of whats popular now.
I cant claim to have broken any new ground, (and i cant say that I havent gotten the orc out of my portfolio)but alot of the games that are being developed, are the same games that we play as gamers.
I do want to see more creative games, and i think thatll happen when some of the excess has been trimmed.
#15
I know where you're coming from, but you also have to realize that design - like any other aspect of development - needs to be learned. Most people here, except for the 50 or so hardcore GGers, are going to quit when things get a little serious.
I myself started with a unique design - a realtime strategy game based on music and culture instead of war. But I need tools, and the only way for me to get them is to code them myself. So, I chose another genre that I love that has been lacking, and started from there. Once I have enough going, I'll go back to the earlier design. My goals here at GG is very simple. I start off with a project I KNOW I can finish and then get to the project that I WANT to make. (Not that I will skimp on trying to innovate, but without even some base libraries it'll take me longer than I would care for to build them up from scratch not knowing where the design will lead!)
On a side note, I don't see you doing much more than making "The Incredible Machine 3D" for your dev house's first game. (Don't get me wrong! I loved TIM and I can't wait for this new one!;D) Besides creating this great site and unbelievable opportunities for everyone!
Lastly, I would like everyone to know that my 3 heroes of the 3rd Gen HAVE TO BE (in no particular order) Chris Crawford(1st great wargame design) / Dani Bunten(1st multiplayer modem design) / Jeff Tunnel(many firsts including making me become addicted to games!)
Love and Peace,
-Mike :)
03/01/2002 (9:24 am)
Jeff,I know where you're coming from, but you also have to realize that design - like any other aspect of development - needs to be learned. Most people here, except for the 50 or so hardcore GGers, are going to quit when things get a little serious.
I myself started with a unique design - a realtime strategy game based on music and culture instead of war. But I need tools, and the only way for me to get them is to code them myself. So, I chose another genre that I love that has been lacking, and started from there. Once I have enough going, I'll go back to the earlier design. My goals here at GG is very simple. I start off with a project I KNOW I can finish and then get to the project that I WANT to make. (Not that I will skimp on trying to innovate, but without even some base libraries it'll take me longer than I would care for to build them up from scratch not knowing where the design will lead!)
On a side note, I don't see you doing much more than making "The Incredible Machine 3D" for your dev house's first game. (Don't get me wrong! I loved TIM and I can't wait for this new one!;D) Besides creating this great site and unbelievable opportunities for everyone!
Lastly, I would like everyone to know that my 3 heroes of the 3rd Gen HAVE TO BE (in no particular order) Chris Crawford(1st great wargame design) / Dani Bunten(1st multiplayer modem design) / Jeff Tunnel(many firsts including making me become addicted to games!)
Love and Peace,
-Mike :)
#16
Since we were the ones to create The Incredible Machine in the first place, I think it is our right to continue to explore this genre. In fact, TIM is a prime example of the kind of innovation that I am talking about. There was a niche that was not fully explored the first time around. What can we do with the physics and object oriented interaction of the parts now that we have the first version nearly complete? Stay tuned to find out:)
Another point that I am trying to make here is that innovation does not mean creating a game that is for casual gamers. What if the guys that did Dope Wars would have just created another Tetris clone or bubble pop game that they knew they could complete? You would have never heard of them or their game.
And one last point. Dope Wars was no more difficult to create than either the Tetris clone or the bubble pop game. So, in summary, creativity does not mean more difficult to develop or strictly for casual gamers. I just want to clear that up.
Jeff Tunnell GG
03/01/2002 (9:50 am)
Michael,Since we were the ones to create The Incredible Machine in the first place, I think it is our right to continue to explore this genre. In fact, TIM is a prime example of the kind of innovation that I am talking about. There was a niche that was not fully explored the first time around. What can we do with the physics and object oriented interaction of the parts now that we have the first version nearly complete? Stay tuned to find out:)
Another point that I am trying to make here is that innovation does not mean creating a game that is for casual gamers. What if the guys that did Dope Wars would have just created another Tetris clone or bubble pop game that they knew they could complete? You would have never heard of them or their game.
And one last point. Dope Wars was no more difficult to create than either the Tetris clone or the bubble pop game. So, in summary, creativity does not mean more difficult to develop or strictly for casual gamers. I just want to clear that up.
Jeff Tunnell GG
#17
To try and make things more clear from my point of view, I was offering reasons why this creative direction you speak of might not happen as soon as some of us would like. I totally agree with what you are saying, and your post is just as much a challenge to Torque users as it is to the rest of the games industry. I am sure you like many others know that with the brains and technology the industry offers, we should be able to come up with all kinds of creative ways of entertaining people, shoving away from any standard medium that seems to arise and present itself as standard or 'norm'.
What I, and many others are trying to say, is it will take some time for 'this community' (at least) to get to a point where we can fully exploit Torque. This means getting to a point to comfortably make a game with the engine, and this may take a game or two.. for a team before they feel comfortable enough to whip out the wild side of creativity. One of the many things holding a large portion of this community back is experience I believe, and the only way to get that experience is to live it. In the same way building a similar technology may help you realize ways to build a new technology, such is game creation for those who haven't practiced it yet- I believe.
The majority of this community has not yet produced a Full Game, so they do not know what is involved fully.
Imo, its the experienced users who need to lighte the way in creative direction for the smaller fish, in terms of experience. Like Phil is doing with Zap, which is cool (Phil!), its showing the community (limited in some ways to a narrow viewpoint) that there are other possibilities. With the advent of more titles like Zap! and other intresting designs will come a more creative effort on the part of others in the community. One of the preconceived detterents in the eyes of young guns is acceptance and confidence- though they might not so readily admit this.
Add: Experience
Interesting enough, every game company I have attempted to work for in the past has always explained to me the project they are working on, or will be working on, and not once was the idea completely, or mostly, original - even with a large twist. This may have been one the reasons I didn't get any of these jobs. My attitude was on the edge of constructive criticism, interest, and questionative. Some companies only seem to want to hear how great their idea is no matter how lame I think it is. "Yea, so we are going to do a space combat shooter."
Comments:
We need to keep in mind thee successful companies and what they do, because these companies are often the hallmark of younger developers pursuals. "I want to make a game like that". To put aside the notion that these people lack creativity might be an understatement, but this is many times the stepping stone these developers need to get their feet wet (in the door, experienced). "I want to do something like that" is what captures most young developers interest in the first place, and opens the doors of GameIsm. Soon after they have killed dozens of rabbits (first game experience), they venture forth to slay Demons(creativity)!
Descent:
I hope this cleared up the points of view some here share, though I would not like to speak for everyone without consent (lest I be BoSS)!
Add: Experience
*In my case, I found my current team through alpha testing a game in development- now on shelves, Dark Age of Camelot. Till that point in time I could never find anyone interested in working on a group project, willing to put it on the table, and most of all, serious. As independant amateurs, its one of the few chances you might have to do something original for a while. While he project Im working on now isnt a black streak in the sky, it is interesting enough I decided to work on it. What captured my interest most was the seriousness of some of the others, one imparticular. Since I have came to GG and participated in the chat room (not so much on forumns yet) I have met others that share similar interests in their future and seriousness. Meeting the right people seems to be the hardest part when putting together a large project: many are already hired, others are stuck as hobbyists, too inexperienced, have no clues(these are important), not motivated, aren't as serious as they think.. and so forth. Thus the fun begins. Many end up going the solo road for many of these reasons as you well know!
Closure: Damn - long
I'll take the time to say 'endless thanks dude (Mr. Jeff Tunnell)' for putting so much into GG. With your comments above I concur, I see the painted picture. I hope the above explains a current New Lion's point of view. The future is so bright it sometimes blinds us. See you in the ring.
Regards,
03/01/2002 (10:08 am)
Jeff,To try and make things more clear from my point of view, I was offering reasons why this creative direction you speak of might not happen as soon as some of us would like. I totally agree with what you are saying, and your post is just as much a challenge to Torque users as it is to the rest of the games industry. I am sure you like many others know that with the brains and technology the industry offers, we should be able to come up with all kinds of creative ways of entertaining people, shoving away from any standard medium that seems to arise and present itself as standard or 'norm'.
What I, and many others are trying to say, is it will take some time for 'this community' (at least) to get to a point where we can fully exploit Torque. This means getting to a point to comfortably make a game with the engine, and this may take a game or two.. for a team before they feel comfortable enough to whip out the wild side of creativity. One of the many things holding a large portion of this community back is experience I believe, and the only way to get that experience is to live it. In the same way building a similar technology may help you realize ways to build a new technology, such is game creation for those who haven't practiced it yet- I believe.
The majority of this community has not yet produced a Full Game, so they do not know what is involved fully.
Imo, its the experienced users who need to lighte the way in creative direction for the smaller fish, in terms of experience. Like Phil is doing with Zap, which is cool (Phil!), its showing the community (limited in some ways to a narrow viewpoint) that there are other possibilities. With the advent of more titles like Zap! and other intresting designs will come a more creative effort on the part of others in the community. One of the preconceived detterents in the eyes of young guns is acceptance and confidence- though they might not so readily admit this.
Add: Experience
Interesting enough, every game company I have attempted to work for in the past has always explained to me the project they are working on, or will be working on, and not once was the idea completely, or mostly, original - even with a large twist. This may have been one the reasons I didn't get any of these jobs. My attitude was on the edge of constructive criticism, interest, and questionative. Some companies only seem to want to hear how great their idea is no matter how lame I think it is. "Yea, so we are going to do a space combat shooter."
Comments:
We need to keep in mind thee successful companies and what they do, because these companies are often the hallmark of younger developers pursuals. "I want to make a game like that". To put aside the notion that these people lack creativity might be an understatement, but this is many times the stepping stone these developers need to get their feet wet (in the door, experienced). "I want to do something like that" is what captures most young developers interest in the first place, and opens the doors of GameIsm. Soon after they have killed dozens of rabbits (first game experience), they venture forth to slay Demons(creativity)!
Descent:
I hope this cleared up the points of view some here share, though I would not like to speak for everyone without consent (lest I be BoSS)!
Add: Experience
*In my case, I found my current team through alpha testing a game in development- now on shelves, Dark Age of Camelot. Till that point in time I could never find anyone interested in working on a group project, willing to put it on the table, and most of all, serious. As independant amateurs, its one of the few chances you might have to do something original for a while. While he project Im working on now isnt a black streak in the sky, it is interesting enough I decided to work on it. What captured my interest most was the seriousness of some of the others, one imparticular. Since I have came to GG and participated in the chat room (not so much on forumns yet) I have met others that share similar interests in their future and seriousness. Meeting the right people seems to be the hardest part when putting together a large project: many are already hired, others are stuck as hobbyists, too inexperienced, have no clues(these are important), not motivated, aren't as serious as they think.. and so forth. Thus the fun begins. Many end up going the solo road for many of these reasons as you well know!
Closure: Damn - long
I'll take the time to say 'endless thanks dude (Mr. Jeff Tunnell)' for putting so much into GG. With your comments above I concur, I see the painted picture. I hope the above explains a current New Lion's point of view. The future is so bright it sometimes blinds us. See you in the ring.
Regards,
#18
Now you have the gaming industry...the gaming industry is just the same. The Sims is the boy band of the gaming industry. They polished it all up and made it nice and cute...however this one is fun for all ages. Your 48 year old mother has the capacity to load up The Sims and sit around and play for a few hours. Put your mom in front of Half-Life or hell, even Doom. Good luck trying to teach her then. And The Sims is churning out addon after addon (the equivalent of a boy band cloning CD after CD), which is flying up the charts. What's new? Barely anything- you break it all down and it's the same old The Sims...fun for about 30 minutes and then you're done. It's sold so many copies because ANYONE CAN PLAY IT. This doesn't mean it's that great of a game. I tip my hat to it for its inovation to the gaming community, but personally the whole Sims community is a little too...newbie...for me.
Then we have Half-Life, the mega rock star of computer games. Now, don't hate it because it's beautiful. It's still the greatest FPS to date, and it's agelessness shows with the number of mods out there. Hell, look at Counter-Strike. It's a tiny mod that made a big blip in the eyes of the industry. Was it unique? Depends on how you define unique; I'd say it's unique in the way that it kind of raised the bar for mods everywhere, causing people to take mods a little more serious. As far as the gameplay goes, I like to call it "Rainbow Six for Dummies."
This action, just like in music, proves that the mainstream isn't the only side of the coin...with every mainstream you have your indie, or underground scene. For every Creed, you have some kids playing in their garage. For every Britney Spears, you have some innocent looking schoolgirl singing in the church choir. Are they any better or worse than their professional counterparts? Talent-wise, no. Cash-wise, yes.
So we have the gaming industry making games for who these days? It seems a lot of times, with these rushed released, these "release THEN patch" releases, that these game companies are making games for money. And it's highway robbery. The gaming industry is one of those sneaky industries where, you open it you bought it. No matter what pile of steaming crap is inside that box, you're stuck with it. You release a game with such high level hype and prestigue, causing people to scramble and buy it...they find how terrible it is and the joke is on them. They can't return it (OK, so a very few number of stores accept returned software...not many).
What I'm really saying here is that people often overlook the little guy...the person with his friends making some game or other. Why do they do it? Maybe just to see what they're capable of. Are they looking to make a huge impression on anyone? Who knows...you never know what these people are capable of. Just because they're making an RPG or FPS doesn't mean they're remaking Quake, or remaking Half-Life. They could very well have some serious potential under that hood. That doesn't make them any less special than some group trying to make something so off the wall that the world is going to drop what they're doing and create a whole new genre specifically for that game. Counter-Strike may very well just be another FPS, but it surely made its mark. Who's to say that these FPS projects around these parts aren't going to make a mark?
What it all boils down to is that the gameplay makes the game...the sales don't make the game, the advertising campaign doesn't make the game...the gameplay makes the game. The Sims may be the best selling game of all time, but the amount of people who constantly play it over and over are probably very few. Anyone I've talked to that played it says the same thing...fun for a little bit, then it gets old. Now compare that to the sales of say, Quake 3 and the number of fans constantly playing it. Quake 3 adds nothing to the FPS genre (it's just really good looking Quake 1 deathmatch), but it sure is fun to those fans.
It's not about innovation, it's about gameplay and replayability. And I agree with Don, where a lot of groups aren't trying something daring or off the wall because hell, it takes a year or 2 to complete a game. I'm sure they want to be a little more secure in their success. But I'm taking the traditional FPS and tossing it in a blender with RTS and RPG and other misc. elements with Project: Warfare. I have the guts to experiment, and as a gamer I think the design behind this game is amazing. I'm willing to take risks to try new things out...I moved out of my house and 8 hours away from my family right out of high school to join a rock band, I'd say that's pretty damn risky. I decided that computers and games are bigger in my life...I'd call myself a risk taker...a cautious risk taker, I guess. Because, from the great words of Homer (Simpson, that is), "Stupid risks are what make life worth living."
(sorry about this jumbled mess of random thoughts, I hope none of you jumped from windows because of this)
03/01/2002 (12:12 pm)
I compare the gaming industry a lot to the music industry. Look at the music today...find one unique band you hear on the radio and I'll give you a shiney new nickel. It's an industry, it runs on money...album sales, publicity, radio plays, etc...but it's all about the money. The producers churn out music for 5 good looking guys that can sing for money.Now you have the gaming industry...the gaming industry is just the same. The Sims is the boy band of the gaming industry. They polished it all up and made it nice and cute...however this one is fun for all ages. Your 48 year old mother has the capacity to load up The Sims and sit around and play for a few hours. Put your mom in front of Half-Life or hell, even Doom. Good luck trying to teach her then. And The Sims is churning out addon after addon (the equivalent of a boy band cloning CD after CD), which is flying up the charts. What's new? Barely anything- you break it all down and it's the same old The Sims...fun for about 30 minutes and then you're done. It's sold so many copies because ANYONE CAN PLAY IT. This doesn't mean it's that great of a game. I tip my hat to it for its inovation to the gaming community, but personally the whole Sims community is a little too...newbie...for me.
Then we have Half-Life, the mega rock star of computer games. Now, don't hate it because it's beautiful. It's still the greatest FPS to date, and it's agelessness shows with the number of mods out there. Hell, look at Counter-Strike. It's a tiny mod that made a big blip in the eyes of the industry. Was it unique? Depends on how you define unique; I'd say it's unique in the way that it kind of raised the bar for mods everywhere, causing people to take mods a little more serious. As far as the gameplay goes, I like to call it "Rainbow Six for Dummies."
This action, just like in music, proves that the mainstream isn't the only side of the coin...with every mainstream you have your indie, or underground scene. For every Creed, you have some kids playing in their garage. For every Britney Spears, you have some innocent looking schoolgirl singing in the church choir. Are they any better or worse than their professional counterparts? Talent-wise, no. Cash-wise, yes.
So we have the gaming industry making games for who these days? It seems a lot of times, with these rushed released, these "release THEN patch" releases, that these game companies are making games for money. And it's highway robbery. The gaming industry is one of those sneaky industries where, you open it you bought it. No matter what pile of steaming crap is inside that box, you're stuck with it. You release a game with such high level hype and prestigue, causing people to scramble and buy it...they find how terrible it is and the joke is on them. They can't return it (OK, so a very few number of stores accept returned software...not many).
What I'm really saying here is that people often overlook the little guy...the person with his friends making some game or other. Why do they do it? Maybe just to see what they're capable of. Are they looking to make a huge impression on anyone? Who knows...you never know what these people are capable of. Just because they're making an RPG or FPS doesn't mean they're remaking Quake, or remaking Half-Life. They could very well have some serious potential under that hood. That doesn't make them any less special than some group trying to make something so off the wall that the world is going to drop what they're doing and create a whole new genre specifically for that game. Counter-Strike may very well just be another FPS, but it surely made its mark. Who's to say that these FPS projects around these parts aren't going to make a mark?
What it all boils down to is that the gameplay makes the game...the sales don't make the game, the advertising campaign doesn't make the game...the gameplay makes the game. The Sims may be the best selling game of all time, but the amount of people who constantly play it over and over are probably very few. Anyone I've talked to that played it says the same thing...fun for a little bit, then it gets old. Now compare that to the sales of say, Quake 3 and the number of fans constantly playing it. Quake 3 adds nothing to the FPS genre (it's just really good looking Quake 1 deathmatch), but it sure is fun to those fans.
It's not about innovation, it's about gameplay and replayability. And I agree with Don, where a lot of groups aren't trying something daring or off the wall because hell, it takes a year or 2 to complete a game. I'm sure they want to be a little more secure in their success. But I'm taking the traditional FPS and tossing it in a blender with RTS and RPG and other misc. elements with Project: Warfare. I have the guts to experiment, and as a gamer I think the design behind this game is amazing. I'm willing to take risks to try new things out...I moved out of my house and 8 hours away from my family right out of high school to join a rock band, I'd say that's pretty damn risky. I decided that computers and games are bigger in my life...I'd call myself a risk taker...a cautious risk taker, I guess. Because, from the great words of Homer (Simpson, that is), "Stupid risks are what make life worth living."
(sorry about this jumbled mess of random thoughts, I hope none of you jumped from windows because of this)
#19
The graphics would compete with all the new madden games, but would have more simplicity and brutality than NFl games could handle. Great idea.
03/01/2002 (12:17 pm)
A Mutant League football-esque game would be awesome using torque! The graphics would compete with all the new madden games, but would have more simplicity and brutality than NFl games could handle. Great idea.
#20
As far as what other people are making, it would be silly to expect that providing Torque for cheap would suddenly cause an influx of innovative design. The first problem is that already, it's bent towards creating an FPS. It's not being marketed as a general-purpose engine, it's being showed off as the same engine used in Tribes 2. The basic example provided is a Tribesish FPS. It should only be expected that many people using Torque are going to be interested in designing games at least a little similar to an FPS.
The other part is personal interest. This explains why MMORPGs are also popular. The simple fact of the matter is that FPSes and MMORPGs are some of the most popular games right now, and most people prefer imitation over innovation. It's the "Wouldn't it be cool to make our own game?" attitude. You get immediate enthusiasm but usually not much more beyond lots and lots of elaborate planning. :)
GG has made an important first step for fostering an independent community, which is making the technology accesible. However, an easy comparison can be made from a rich company that donates lots of computer equipment to an inner city school and expects them all to become instant geniuses. The tools need to be brought even closer to the creators for more interesting things to happen. Things such as the community newsletter are good for getting a regular drop of (hopefully) formally written and current information.
More resources to help ease the learning curve would help tremendously. The easier it is to use the tools, the more likely people are to play around with them. An important goal to begin with would be getting reasonable quality documentation (this is a personal peeve of mine so bear with me... :) ). Even if one is industrious enough to want to trace through the code himself, he must trace through each and every function to learn how it works. With Doxygen set up, all of the important parts of the code should have reasonable documentation in place so their purposes can easily be looked up. I should be able to see in the class references a couple sentences on the purpose of the object at the very least. It seems like the bulk of the knowledge on Torque has to be picked up in the forums and IRC by osmosis.
Once most people are technically proficient with Torque more interesting games should begin to show up. They're come eventually, and when they do, I'm sure you'll be ready to proclaim that yes, such-and-such game was made with GG technology. At that point, GG can do other work to help pair up designers with programmers or provide other similar services. Right now only a few people and groups have enough of a repuation to make others interested in working with them. Perhaps when someone does a lot for the community, a little "Torque Expert" title can be added to their user so people can see in the forums who knows their stuff with Torque (maybe also with a little "Programmer," "Scriptor," or "Designer" tag to denote what they're so good at). Maybe a place for people to provide feedback on someone's skills (similar to SourceForge) would be helpful as well.
03/01/2002 (12:53 pm)
Phil: I have a kinda interesting design going for Zap, but I'm waiting on that contract/sign of life from you before I start telling you about it.As far as what other people are making, it would be silly to expect that providing Torque for cheap would suddenly cause an influx of innovative design. The first problem is that already, it's bent towards creating an FPS. It's not being marketed as a general-purpose engine, it's being showed off as the same engine used in Tribes 2. The basic example provided is a Tribesish FPS. It should only be expected that many people using Torque are going to be interested in designing games at least a little similar to an FPS.
The other part is personal interest. This explains why MMORPGs are also popular. The simple fact of the matter is that FPSes and MMORPGs are some of the most popular games right now, and most people prefer imitation over innovation. It's the "Wouldn't it be cool to make our own game?" attitude. You get immediate enthusiasm but usually not much more beyond lots and lots of elaborate planning. :)
GG has made an important first step for fostering an independent community, which is making the technology accesible. However, an easy comparison can be made from a rich company that donates lots of computer equipment to an inner city school and expects them all to become instant geniuses. The tools need to be brought even closer to the creators for more interesting things to happen. Things such as the community newsletter are good for getting a regular drop of (hopefully) formally written and current information.
More resources to help ease the learning curve would help tremendously. The easier it is to use the tools, the more likely people are to play around with them. An important goal to begin with would be getting reasonable quality documentation (this is a personal peeve of mine so bear with me... :) ). Even if one is industrious enough to want to trace through the code himself, he must trace through each and every function to learn how it works. With Doxygen set up, all of the important parts of the code should have reasonable documentation in place so their purposes can easily be looked up. I should be able to see in the class references a couple sentences on the purpose of the object at the very least. It seems like the bulk of the knowledge on Torque has to be picked up in the forums and IRC by osmosis.
Once most people are technically proficient with Torque more interesting games should begin to show up. They're come eventually, and when they do, I'm sure you'll be ready to proclaim that yes, such-and-such game was made with GG technology. At that point, GG can do other work to help pair up designers with programmers or provide other similar services. Right now only a few people and groups have enough of a repuation to make others interested in working with them. Perhaps when someone does a lot for the community, a little "Torque Expert" title can be added to their user so people can see in the forums who knows their stuff with Torque (maybe also with a little "Programmer," "Scriptor," or "Designer" tag to denote what they're so good at). Maybe a place for people to provide feedback on someone's skills (similar to SourceForge) would be helpful as well.
Torque Owner Matt W
Make a casino with roulette tables and in the back room with voice chat so you can talk to the guy playing blackjack in the tux... they're playing Russian roulette (you need to have over $50k saved up to get back there) in the back room. Occasionally a "theif" might come to try to mug you (a fight would be a mini-game)
Dang, that truly is a good idea. Only PC games we've seen casino based are crummy 2d/faux-3d renditions of Ceasar's Palace with some silcone model who shows up every 3 hours.
An online 3d casino... not casino games... A CASINO! That's a pretty damn cool idea Jeff.
As for innovation, I think that we will se more in time. I Think it will require that a few more "mainstream" projects die out, and show that it isn't a guranteed success if you just improve another game.
I'm currently at work on a very well-designed game, with a bunch of innnovative features but I won't try to hide the fact that it's no Parappa the Rapper compared to the other games in the market.
In time, I know Garagegames community will be able to take off their training wheels and race toward creating some truly innovative stuff. Right now, we are all learning, and in order to innovate it's best that we know what we're doing first :P