Piracy in the Indie Community
by Jacob Dankovchik · 07/31/2010 (5:49 am) · 76 comments
With piracy being such a mainstream issue now involving all forms of media I took a moment to think about how this may affect people like us small-time indie guys.
My catalyst for this line of thought came from me thinking about how to distribute my Torque 3D Environment Pack. I'm not much for developing websites, truth of the matter is I don't know a damn thing about it, so I don't feel like making a complex system of extra security and user accounts, I simply don't have the time to learn all of that with college on the side as well. Eventually I came up with a way to do it that will be easy enough, but definitely not secure. I figure just make a password protected download page. Someone makes a purchase, they receive an email with the download link and password. Nice and simple.
However as you can guess, this leaves things open to piracy, if people should be so inclined. All someone has to do is hand out the link and password to other people and anyone could download my work for nothing. Which of course led me wonder about the impact piracy may have on our entire community.
There's of course no need to be so naive as to think none of us here have ever done some level of piracy. A lot of times it's justified in the sense that major companies really won't lose much through some small-time piracy. Download a movie or some songs? The people who worked on that are still going to be millionaires with more money than they know what to do with. But what about the indie game scene like us here?
Obviously starting from the top source, Torque itself, a quick piratebay search shows 3 torrents. One that doesn't have a version, a TGE 1.5, and a T3D 1.0.1. So clearly Torque itself isn't safe from pirates which means we have to have a few right here in this community itself. (especially considering there's a significant amount of people seeding the torrent)
So, what about stepping it down a bit to something more specific? Well, as I was writing the previous paragraph I had the thought to search for Marble Blast and sure enough, a Marble Blast Gold torrent. Also multiple torrents come up for various model and art packs, no immediate way to tell if some did or did not come from this very site. So while obviously there's no doubt people here who occasionally pirate some form of media from some major company, there also those around here who actually are providing some of the stuff here to BE pirated.
This all concerns me so much because soon I'll be apart of that which may be pirated off of. When people pirate software or other media they justify it in that the other person really doesn't NEED it however for some of us here this is very far from the truth. I use for example my own situation. Last November I was discharged from the military 3 years early for a shoulder injury. I had two large surgeries and more physical therapy than I ever want to think of in an attempt to fix it and in the end it wasn't enough and I was kicked out way soon than was planned, also leaving me with a right arm that is virtually useless for any real physical work. Last time I tried, I was able to do an entire 1 pushup before it gave out. So I get removed for a steady source of income, thrust into the outside world during difficult economic times, greatly limited in what I can do. Obviously my only practical option was to go to college, military helps pay for it and I'm going to need the degree. Still doesn't fix the fact though that money isn't exactly easy for me to come by due to my injury and that I was thrust out of my previous job sooner than expected.
With this environment pack I'm working on, I'm hoping to come up with a few extra bucks. Nothing super special, but every dime helps, you know? I'm working on a degree in game design, one of my favorite things to do, next to engineering. However with my shoulder the way it is, things with engineering usually are just painful anyhow as soon as physical work comes into play, so... game design is the safer path. So I figure make a few dollars doing something I love while tryin to make things work everywhere else in my life.
So, that there is the rundown of my story here and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a story like this to tell. Maybe not those exact ways but I'm sure there are others here just like me hoping to use this stuff as an outlet for their practice and love for the art while getting a small amount of compensation.
I'm sure we have pirates here, some people reading this may be the very ones guilty. People that, given the chance, will take any game, movie, or artwork for free and pass it on to others. If anyone like that IS reading this, think about mine and everyone else's situations first...
Download the DVD rip of Avatar, James Cameron will still be able to afford the 10 brand new sports cars for his mid-way birthday. But steal the work of people like myself or others here and you actually ARE taking food out of someone's mouth.
I don't support piracy but in the full corporate world, it has minimal impact. In the indie world though, it is the death of all that we work for. Don't do it. :(
My catalyst for this line of thought came from me thinking about how to distribute my Torque 3D Environment Pack. I'm not much for developing websites, truth of the matter is I don't know a damn thing about it, so I don't feel like making a complex system of extra security and user accounts, I simply don't have the time to learn all of that with college on the side as well. Eventually I came up with a way to do it that will be easy enough, but definitely not secure. I figure just make a password protected download page. Someone makes a purchase, they receive an email with the download link and password. Nice and simple.
However as you can guess, this leaves things open to piracy, if people should be so inclined. All someone has to do is hand out the link and password to other people and anyone could download my work for nothing. Which of course led me wonder about the impact piracy may have on our entire community.
There's of course no need to be so naive as to think none of us here have ever done some level of piracy. A lot of times it's justified in the sense that major companies really won't lose much through some small-time piracy. Download a movie or some songs? The people who worked on that are still going to be millionaires with more money than they know what to do with. But what about the indie game scene like us here?
Obviously starting from the top source, Torque itself, a quick piratebay search shows 3 torrents. One that doesn't have a version, a TGE 1.5, and a T3D 1.0.1. So clearly Torque itself isn't safe from pirates which means we have to have a few right here in this community itself. (especially considering there's a significant amount of people seeding the torrent)
So, what about stepping it down a bit to something more specific? Well, as I was writing the previous paragraph I had the thought to search for Marble Blast and sure enough, a Marble Blast Gold torrent. Also multiple torrents come up for various model and art packs, no immediate way to tell if some did or did not come from this very site. So while obviously there's no doubt people here who occasionally pirate some form of media from some major company, there also those around here who actually are providing some of the stuff here to BE pirated.
This all concerns me so much because soon I'll be apart of that which may be pirated off of. When people pirate software or other media they justify it in that the other person really doesn't NEED it however for some of us here this is very far from the truth. I use for example my own situation. Last November I was discharged from the military 3 years early for a shoulder injury. I had two large surgeries and more physical therapy than I ever want to think of in an attempt to fix it and in the end it wasn't enough and I was kicked out way soon than was planned, also leaving me with a right arm that is virtually useless for any real physical work. Last time I tried, I was able to do an entire 1 pushup before it gave out. So I get removed for a steady source of income, thrust into the outside world during difficult economic times, greatly limited in what I can do. Obviously my only practical option was to go to college, military helps pay for it and I'm going to need the degree. Still doesn't fix the fact though that money isn't exactly easy for me to come by due to my injury and that I was thrust out of my previous job sooner than expected.
With this environment pack I'm working on, I'm hoping to come up with a few extra bucks. Nothing super special, but every dime helps, you know? I'm working on a degree in game design, one of my favorite things to do, next to engineering. However with my shoulder the way it is, things with engineering usually are just painful anyhow as soon as physical work comes into play, so... game design is the safer path. So I figure make a few dollars doing something I love while tryin to make things work everywhere else in my life.
So, that there is the rundown of my story here and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a story like this to tell. Maybe not those exact ways but I'm sure there are others here just like me hoping to use this stuff as an outlet for their practice and love for the art while getting a small amount of compensation.
I'm sure we have pirates here, some people reading this may be the very ones guilty. People that, given the chance, will take any game, movie, or artwork for free and pass it on to others. If anyone like that IS reading this, think about mine and everyone else's situations first...
Download the DVD rip of Avatar, James Cameron will still be able to afford the 10 brand new sports cars for his mid-way birthday. But steal the work of people like myself or others here and you actually ARE taking food out of someone's mouth.
I don't support piracy but in the full corporate world, it has minimal impact. In the indie world though, it is the death of all that we work for. Don't do it. :(
#42
This solution you seek is getting too close to "give your software away since some are going to steal it or copy it anyway"
Or maybe you could obtain a copy for free if you make 2 of your friends buy it, -which seems more like spamming and pyramid scheeming.
Piracy does not only attack companies, but is undermining the economy of our societies as well, and thereby an attack on everyone's personal wellbeing!
08/03/2010 (7:26 am)
@DustinThis solution you seek is getting too close to "give your software away since some are going to steal it or copy it anyway"
Or maybe you could obtain a copy for free if you make 2 of your friends buy it, -which seems more like spamming and pyramid scheeming.
Piracy does not only attack companies, but is undermining the economy of our societies as well, and thereby an attack on everyone's personal wellbeing!
#43
This is a bold sweeping statement, do you have substantial proof that help to support it? I think you are being funny, what help to illustrate the problem with stating opinions as evidence while debating an issue. If your not being funny, forgive me laughing at your statement...
08/03/2010 (8:00 am)
Ya, my sweet little-o grandmother was gunned down coming home from church by a gang of software thieving pirates. I think they were looking for drugs after seeking an abortion clinic. Quote:Piracy does not only attack companies, but is undermining the economy of our societies as well, and thereby an attack on everyone's personal wellbeing
This is a bold sweeping statement, do you have substantial proof that help to support it? I think you are being funny, what help to illustrate the problem with stating opinions as evidence while debating an issue. If your not being funny, forgive me laughing at your statement...
#44
I also find it funny that the obvious elude your educated eye.
Why do some countries send navy ships to fight pirates in the waters near Somalia?
-Because soldiers love doing what they are trained for?
No because stealing from companies is stealing tax money from the state.
so every time you pirate software you steal from the company and the country you live in!
-This simple and that bold ;-)
-just call me soft hearted socialist all you want, this is reason enough for me to say nay to legalizing piracy...
08/03/2010 (8:14 am)
That's allright -edited-I also find it funny that the obvious elude your educated eye.
Why do some countries send navy ships to fight pirates in the waters near Somalia?
-Because soldiers love doing what they are trained for?
No because stealing from companies is stealing tax money from the state.
so every time you pirate software you steal from the company and the country you live in!
-This simple and that bold ;-)
-just call me soft hearted socialist all you want, this is reason enough for me to say nay to legalizing piracy...
#45
And you may call me by Caylo, Or Gypsyblood but gypsy is derogatory slang used in reference a type of ethnicality.
Soldiers, Somalia and socialism are very far away from the topic of software pirates.
08/03/2010 (8:31 am)
Hold on a sec! I am not advocating any PRO/CON conceptions with my participation in this debate. I have been quite clear to keep personal moral opinion out of the debate and have never made any statement that could lead one to think otherwise. As far as opinion on this subject go, no one so far have any clue to what I may morally believe, such details are not the point of discussion here. And you may call me by Caylo, Or Gypsyblood but gypsy is derogatory slang used in reference a type of ethnicality.
Soldiers, Somalia and socialism are very far away from the topic of software pirates.
#46
where did I say Caylo want piracy to be legal? I stated my opinion and used the general term you.
Have you any proof that piracy does not effect economy?
Your personal and moral opinion of my statement was revealed when you told the story of how Grandma Gypsyblood ended her days.
08/03/2010 (8:45 am)
Caylowhere did I say Caylo want piracy to be legal? I stated my opinion and used the general term you.
Have you any proof that piracy does not effect economy?
Your personal and moral opinion of my statement was revealed when you told the story of how Grandma Gypsyblood ended her days.
#47
You will notice I lumped many moral issues of ambiguity into that anecdotal story. Nothing in that fiction leads evidence into my standings on any mentioned moral issues.
I have indeed hinted at where you may uncover proof that piracy does not effect economy. Also by reason of logical deduction you yourself may come to such related conclusions. But of course you would need to read the full Blog of posts to get the idea of where the debate have already been.
EDIT: And your right, I have formed opinion from what you have said and ask myself what type of person would say/think/believe such things. But I have found it seldom helpful to express my discoveries even when asked, the nice thing about observational opinions are how very fluid they are.
08/03/2010 (9:10 am)
Quote:I also find it funny that the obvious elude your educated eye.
You will notice I lumped many moral issues of ambiguity into that anecdotal story. Nothing in that fiction leads evidence into my standings on any mentioned moral issues.
I have indeed hinted at where you may uncover proof that piracy does not effect economy. Also by reason of logical deduction you yourself may come to such related conclusions. But of course you would need to read the full Blog of posts to get the idea of where the debate have already been.
EDIT: And your right, I have formed opinion from what you have said and ask myself what type of person would say/think/believe such things. But I have found it seldom helpful to express my discoveries even when asked, the nice thing about observational opinions are how very fluid they are.
#48
I'm glad your grandmother is safe then ;-)
The fact that you laugh at my post is evidence that you disagree.
And that you conclude I'm a racist biggot because I used the first part of your last name reveals some of your moral deductions.
You assume I did not read the previous posts because it's above my capasity?
piracy effects, capital punishment should be the answer!
08/03/2010 (9:27 am)
Fiction?I'm glad your grandmother is safe then ;-)
The fact that you laugh at my post is evidence that you disagree.
And that you conclude I'm a racist biggot because I used the first part of your last name reveals some of your moral deductions.
You assume I did not read the previous posts because it's above my capasity?
piracy effects, capital punishment should be the answer!
#49
It is a common methodology of the scientific principle as applied with critical thinking as a tool to discover the answers to any question one may pose. And opinions and morality must be excluded as possible obstacles to the underlining truth. Remember why for so very long people were taught the Earth was flat and at the very center of the universe? It took critical thinking and many years of debate to erase that ONE fallacy of logic.
EDIT: And I never said my grandmother was safe, she died to the hands of a different type of monster.
08/03/2010 (9:48 am)
I make no opinions about the individual person, just to what type of person would say/think/believe(Think of it as walking a mile in what MAY be others shoes. As the old metaphor go). It is a common methodology of the scientific principle as applied with critical thinking as a tool to discover the answers to any question one may pose. And opinions and morality must be excluded as possible obstacles to the underlining truth. Remember why for so very long people were taught the Earth was flat and at the very center of the universe? It took critical thinking and many years of debate to erase that ONE fallacy of logic.
EDIT: And I never said my grandmother was safe, she died to the hands of a different type of monster.
#51
why bicker with the nextdoor neighbour over the milk you stole from the cow he feds, it will produce more. Why argue over the cost of a product, when the coders all gone home to tell wifes of no more salary. Why debate such issues as is in this thread, when theres so big a difference in the cultural norms of those on earth...
Sleep tight!
08/03/2010 (1:54 pm)
morale, the very core of the OP and the kids roaming at the fire. Morale is what in the very end makes our communities go around, and allows for a somewhat tolerable existence -or not!why bicker with the nextdoor neighbour over the milk you stole from the cow he feds, it will produce more. Why argue over the cost of a product, when the coders all gone home to tell wifes of no more salary. Why debate such issues as is in this thread, when theres so big a difference in the cultural norms of those on earth...
Sleep tight!
#52
Morals do not make an community. Morals and opinions make wars. A community is a group of people who understand others may have different morals and opinions, yet peacefully work together for the goals that they have in common.
08/03/2010 (7:12 pm)
Truly? Can not think of a way to express ones beliefs without getting all HIGH GROUND and HOLY, preaching and ranting about your 'better' moral values, and how everyone should obviously see your opinions are better and only a fool would disagree, so punish them or banish them from your communities? EDIT: This is not at you Christian S or anyone else, but about the misconception that "morale, the very core of the OP" and the repetition of some odd ideas about morales and opinions. Morals do not make an community. Morals and opinions make wars. A community is a group of people who understand others may have different morals and opinions, yet peacefully work together for the goals that they have in common.
Quote:when the coders all gone home to tell wifes of no more salaryLet us say no one stole the 'coders product', and none of the people (who would have stolen it) have bought it either. Are the coders still 'gone home to tell wifes of no more salary'? Who do you blame now? No more Pirates, yet the same amount of product profit is "LOST". [Notice this example is NOT an opinion, and have no room for morality. A simple definition of fact.]
#53
May or may not have noticed I also chose not to take part in the discussion. In my opinion, piracy is the kind of thing where there is no true right way to think about it and the only wrong way is to not ever give it any thought at all.
We'll never be able to stop it dead and how to combat it is entirely up to the product's creator.
08/03/2010 (7:19 pm)
I see I managed to stir up quite a discussion here... Which is good, exactly what I wanted to do. :)May or may not have noticed I also chose not to take part in the discussion. In my opinion, piracy is the kind of thing where there is no true right way to think about it and the only wrong way is to not ever give it any thought at all.
We'll never be able to stop it dead and how to combat it is entirely up to the product's creator.
#54
Since you enjoyed the last link I posted, I figure that this one which is more on the same subject from the same author would also interest you:
jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/booty-call.html
He's a published author that has books on sites like Amazon and even though his works get downloaded for free, he still sees good revenue from the sale of his works even though he provides all of his ebooks on his website to download for free.
08/03/2010 (9:54 pm)
@ CayloSince you enjoyed the last link I posted, I figure that this one which is more on the same subject from the same author would also interest you:
jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/01/booty-call.html
He's a published author that has books on sites like Amazon and even though his works get downloaded for free, he still sees good revenue from the sale of his works even though he provides all of his ebooks on his website to download for free.
#55
If you pay for it and it is taken, it will be recognized as theft.
That's not here in the States- not yet. But here's some criminal penalties levied elsewhere:
Woman jailed 12 months for piracy and counterfeiting
Two guys jailed for 18 months & 3 years for possession of 58,000 British Pounds (sorry, don't know the keystroke for it).
Okay, I lied, here's a couple of people jailed in the US:
Someone messed with Texas...
@Dustin: Sorry to say, but here's some proof that copyright violations are actually prosecutable in criminal courts.
In maryland, someone jailed for copyright and DMCA violations.
And an listing of criminal copyright laws. I haven't read everything, but some of it is price-dependent, so below a certain amount it gets covered in civil court- but again, it depends on what you've copied.
@Dustin: To address a few things you mentioned:
1) I don't have a problem with a kid who downloads a game specifically to decide to go buy it or not. However, it's not the same for the person who seeded that torrent, because that person has no regard for the reasons for the download, makes no effort to ensure it's not being resold, and more often than not, just has a "f**k them" attitude.
2) Towards the larger perspective of looking for ways to make things work without simply paying, as I said previously, there are several ways people have been looking to make profits. One way told to me by the coder working for a large casual game publisher was to offer the game free in the browser and have a cheap version available for download.
I'm probably not done looking into stuff, so I'll most likely post more as I come across it...
08/03/2010 (10:10 pm)
Nice to see that the thread couldn't go three pages before the jihad opened up (don't make me pull the car over, kids). In any event, I've been taking a look into this (as much as I can lately, given my work-load), and all indications (including several panels and roundtables I've attended at conferences) point to this:If you pay for it and it is taken, it will be recognized as theft.
That's not here in the States- not yet. But here's some criminal penalties levied elsewhere:
Woman jailed 12 months for piracy and counterfeiting
Two guys jailed for 18 months & 3 years for possession of 58,000 British Pounds (sorry, don't know the keystroke for it).
Okay, I lied, here's a couple of people jailed in the US:
Someone messed with Texas...
@Dustin: Sorry to say, but here's some proof that copyright violations are actually prosecutable in criminal courts.
In maryland, someone jailed for copyright and DMCA violations.
And an listing of criminal copyright laws. I haven't read everything, but some of it is price-dependent, so below a certain amount it gets covered in civil court- but again, it depends on what you've copied.
@Dustin: To address a few things you mentioned:
1) I don't have a problem with a kid who downloads a game specifically to decide to go buy it or not. However, it's not the same for the person who seeded that torrent, because that person has no regard for the reasons for the download, makes no effort to ensure it's not being resold, and more often than not, just has a "f**k them" attitude.
2) Towards the larger perspective of looking for ways to make things work without simply paying, as I said previously, there are several ways people have been looking to make profits. One way told to me by the coder working for a large casual game publisher was to offer the game free in the browser and have a cheap version available for download.
I'm probably not done looking into stuff, so I'll most likely post more as I come across it...
#56
Like that author and many other people, I can not find a sound argument that dissuade me from the conclusion of the example I used in post #52. I have read and viewed many emotional arguments about the topic, but none that fit the criteria of being 'true'; by virtue of methodology from the scientific principle as applied with critical thinking.
Opinions can be derived from truth, same with a belief system and morals. But there is only one way to express that truth, by stating the facts what support it. So far most of the last 2 pages of this debate are baseless, factless moral opinions derived from other factless moral opinions. And in actuality I have not been so much debating about 'Piracy in the Indie Community' as I have the use of factless moral opinions in place of truth as a tool of argumentative debate. That is the seed from what ignorance is sprouted and the fruit is a tasteless world of needless self repression.
As the Buddha say; You cannot win anything new if you fear losing everything old.
EDIT: Ted, thats some good critical use of definition to support a debating angle of belief. I have pointed out by most basic of definition taking something you have no right to, is stealing. This can not be debated as opinion or morality it is a fact in every culture.
08/03/2010 (10:35 pm)
Ah it is Wal-Mart at the heart of this!Like that author and many other people, I can not find a sound argument that dissuade me from the conclusion of the example I used in post #52. I have read and viewed many emotional arguments about the topic, but none that fit the criteria of being 'true'; by virtue of methodology from the scientific principle as applied with critical thinking.
Opinions can be derived from truth, same with a belief system and morals. But there is only one way to express that truth, by stating the facts what support it. So far most of the last 2 pages of this debate are baseless, factless moral opinions derived from other factless moral opinions. And in actuality I have not been so much debating about 'Piracy in the Indie Community' as I have the use of factless moral opinions in place of truth as a tool of argumentative debate. That is the seed from what ignorance is sprouted and the fruit is a tasteless world of needless self repression.
As the Buddha say; You cannot win anything new if you fear losing everything old.
EDIT: Ted, thats some good critical use of definition to support a debating angle of belief. I have pointed out by most basic of definition taking something you have no right to, is stealing. This can not be debated as opinion or morality it is a fact in every culture.
#57
08/03/2010 (10:45 pm)
Just because "Piracy in the Indie Community" is stealing, do not mean many of the other claims being made here fit the debate by sound and reasonable example.
#58
Those are some interesting finds. The cases of the people jailed doesn't really give proper details though and the list of copyright criminal laws are not laws, they're prosecution policies. From what I can gather from the sources you provide, they were criminally charged for the counterfeiting of copyrighted material, which is of the few cases in which criminal prosecution occurs. If they can prove you were counterfeiting and not just infringing, then you can face criminal penalties.
08/03/2010 (10:50 pm)
@TedThose are some interesting finds. The cases of the people jailed doesn't really give proper details though and the list of copyright criminal laws are not laws, they're prosecution policies. From what I can gather from the sources you provide, they were criminally charged for the counterfeiting of copyrighted material, which is of the few cases in which criminal prosecution occurs. If they can prove you were counterfeiting and not just infringing, then you can face criminal penalties.
#59
08/03/2010 (11:03 pm)
Yeah, I'm still looking into stuff. Like I said, I'm slammed for work (two contracts and a part-time job, not to mention trying to lead a normal social life), so I can't dive into it like I'd like. I'm going to continue looking, and I think it's worth it to find out where things are headed, legally, rather than just butt heads on our own respective opinions (unless I become a member of Congress, in which case I get to make laws- muwhahahaha!).
#60
08/03/2010 (11:04 pm)
@Caylo: I'm not just putting that there for the "stealing" portion of the debate, but it's about the trending of law regarding copyrights, content, and IP. 
Torque 3D Owner Dustin Mellen
Then fight it if you feel you must, it's your right. I'm just entertaining the possibility of another solution that doesn't drag people into court while giving something to both sides of the issue.