The Death of Blade3D and Other Indie Options
by Rob Mussell · 08/23/2009 (11:57 am) · 25 comments
The whole subscription business model only works with publications and print materials, programs and IDEs with subscription fees are like poking a dead horse with a cattle prod-- no matter how you poke it, it's still dead...
I have been using Torque Constructor for a couple of years now, and it still has unlimited growth potential.
I also have been using DarkBasic Pro for a little longer than that, and as an Indie Developer, I feel that there's potential to utilize those pieces and incorporate your creations into WHATEVER you want to create!...
Remember: DarkGDK is absolutely FREE, uses DirectX 9.0c (and DX10), and uses the Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2008 environment-- ALL FREE! I've coded some internal utilities for the programming department and a graphics converter for the art department-- the inclusion of their "FPS Creator" source and compilation DLLs makes this of great benefit for tweaking an otherwise unbelievable set of tools.
Look, I feel bad about the monies invested into Blade3D by all of you who subscribed to that platform, but rest assured, you can find the tools you need-- either reasonably priced (The Game Creators want their royalties AFTER YOU'VE MADE YOUR FIRST $5000! selling product created with DBPro!) or for free (Blender3D is Python-based and comes with a BUILT-IN scripting system for making games! -or- DarkGDK, above!).
I use certain programs and do not have any qualms about free utilities or development environments. I used to program the Mac with THINK Pascal 4.5d4 (free) and used Ingemar Ragnemalm's "Sprite Animation Toolkit 2.0" (also free); still do when the mood hits me... What I'm trying to say here is: looking for those inexpensive tools is a good thing, near-free and free are always my cup of tea, but look at the features list, look at the memory requirement and HDD footprint, and then determine, with all of the add-ons you'll need (and program), will it be worth the investment-- paying upfront? paying for additional seats? paying for a basic system, then paying more for the full system? or even paying for the software on a monthly basis, hoping that the constant charge is worth the next-to-zero updates?
What would you rather spend on a great set of tools like Torque or Blender3D or DarkGDK? I think The Game Creators have the right idea, especially for us Indie Developers who don't have $350 of disposable income in today's economic situation...
Again: It's all a matter of opinion (and preference).
I have been using Torque Constructor for a couple of years now, and it still has unlimited growth potential.
I also have been using DarkBasic Pro for a little longer than that, and as an Indie Developer, I feel that there's potential to utilize those pieces and incorporate your creations into WHATEVER you want to create!...
Remember: DarkGDK is absolutely FREE, uses DirectX 9.0c (and DX10), and uses the Microsoft Visual C++ Express 2008 environment-- ALL FREE! I've coded some internal utilities for the programming department and a graphics converter for the art department-- the inclusion of their "FPS Creator" source and compilation DLLs makes this of great benefit for tweaking an otherwise unbelievable set of tools.
Look, I feel bad about the monies invested into Blade3D by all of you who subscribed to that platform, but rest assured, you can find the tools you need-- either reasonably priced (The Game Creators want their royalties AFTER YOU'VE MADE YOUR FIRST $5000! selling product created with DBPro!) or for free (Blender3D is Python-based and comes with a BUILT-IN scripting system for making games! -or- DarkGDK, above!).
I use certain programs and do not have any qualms about free utilities or development environments. I used to program the Mac with THINK Pascal 4.5d4 (free) and used Ingemar Ragnemalm's "Sprite Animation Toolkit 2.0" (also free); still do when the mood hits me... What I'm trying to say here is: looking for those inexpensive tools is a good thing, near-free and free are always my cup of tea, but look at the features list, look at the memory requirement and HDD footprint, and then determine, with all of the add-ons you'll need (and program), will it be worth the investment-- paying upfront? paying for additional seats? paying for a basic system, then paying more for the full system? or even paying for the software on a monthly basis, hoping that the constant charge is worth the next-to-zero updates?
What would you rather spend on a great set of tools like Torque or Blender3D or DarkGDK? I think The Game Creators have the right idea, especially for us Indie Developers who don't have $350 of disposable income in today's economic situation...
Again: It's all a matter of opinion (and preference).
#2
It seems like you did not yet have a chance to work with Torque, otherwise you would not be bashing it for not being free.
Not only do you bash it for its price, you compare it to other engines that are not even in the same league. The key word is compare. I usually compare stuff that I actually know something about.
What do they call it when you bash something you have no idea about? Help me out with that word, Rob.
08/23/2009 (1:49 pm)
If you are serious about it, you need the source. You need to decide what you want to do, and what your budget allows. It seems like you did not yet have a chance to work with Torque, otherwise you would not be bashing it for not being free.
Not only do you bash it for its price, you compare it to other engines that are not even in the same league. The key word is compare. I usually compare stuff that I actually know something about.
What do they call it when you bash something you have no idea about? Help me out with that word, Rob.
#3
08/23/2009 (2:04 pm)
i saw many serious indies with unity pro and they dont have a source..
#4
Still, I can see how I'd be missing access to the source. But you're perfectly right about that, so forgive me for the bad wording.
08/23/2009 (2:16 pm)
@Ori: You're right. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to give the wrong impression. Neither about any other engines, nor about anyone else not relying on source. Still, I can see how I'd be missing access to the source. But you're perfectly right about that, so forgive me for the bad wording.
#5
Konrad's point was, i think, more in the lines of adding a more specialized gameplay or changing the way something works inside the engine - that kind of thing.
Some stuff just has to be worked inside code.
Even with TGE, TGEA, TGB and T3D you can make a game without access to source - you just have to stick to what comes out-of-the-box. Not much space for creativity.
If you have a project with special needs chances are scripting alone won't be enough. Of course if you want to do is an MP shooter then stock code is all you need - no source access needed.
08/23/2009 (2:47 pm)
@Ori:Konrad's point was, i think, more in the lines of adding a more specialized gameplay or changing the way something works inside the engine - that kind of thing.
Some stuff just has to be worked inside code.
Even with TGE, TGEA, TGB and T3D you can make a game without access to source - you just have to stick to what comes out-of-the-box. Not much space for creativity.
If you have a project with special needs chances are scripting alone won't be enough. Of course if you want to do is an MP shooter then stock code is all you need - no source access needed.
#6
On the source code thing, is an old debate, and at this point is kind of childish to insist that the same flexibility can be obtained with and without source code. It is a totally different development philosophy, and although great things can be done without the source, thats not really the point.
08/23/2009 (3:38 pm)
Konrad's point was pretty clear: you cannot compare tools you have not used. Is quite clear from Rob's post, that he doesnt really understand what he is comparing.On the source code thing, is an old debate, and at this point is kind of childish to insist that the same flexibility can be obtained with and without source code. It is a totally different development philosophy, and although great things can be done without the source, thats not really the point.
#7
But whatever, it doesn't look like you came here to discuss.
08/23/2009 (3:51 pm)
I'm sorry but you're comparing different things. Game Maker is not an SDK and doesn't pretend to be either, nor is Torque a complete "game maker" package that anyone can understand.But whatever, it doesn't look like you came here to discuss.
#8
08/23/2009 (4:39 pm)
Should maybe blogs be set aside for.. I dunno, maybe people who actually own a GG engine?
#9
Blogs (or plans as they were called) have always been accessible even to the ones that didn't own V12, which was the only engine back then. I'd like to see it stay that way.
08/23/2009 (6:08 pm)
Yeah, great idea to segregate and make the community look just a little bit more elitist.Blogs (or plans as they were called) have always been accessible even to the ones that didn't own V12, which was the only engine back then. I'd like to see it stay that way.
#10
08/23/2009 (6:17 pm)
Elitist to keep blogs for GG owners? Wow.. I was elite and didn't even know it! :-p 
#11
While The Game Creators products do look interesting, I don't think I would be willing to switch for two main reasons:
1. The development community here is top-notch IMO and while I havnt been able to see other engine's communities I would have to say if it werent for the GG Forums, Resources and Content Packs I would not have my project almost at Demo status.
2. The support of TorqueScript is a serious helper, while I am not an experienced c++ programmer I'd have to say learning TorqueScript has actually helped me ease into programming syntax and is making things easier while learning c++.(even with prior VB knowledge)
While there are more reasons that I prefer Torque, I would have to say that those are the most substantial reasons.
When I purchased this Engine, my sole reason was that I would be able to do anything I wanted with it, and while my skills determine what I can accomplish I have not had much stand in the way with some help from fellow GG'ers.
08/23/2009 (9:19 pm)
I started off with a $100.00 purchase (for TGE1.4.2) and later upgraded for $50.00 (TGE1.5.2), far from the $350.00 estimate, though I'm not sure if TGE1.5.2 is available anymore, I am completely satisfied with the Torque.(and will eventually move on to TGEA, keyword eventually...lol)While The Game Creators products do look interesting, I don't think I would be willing to switch for two main reasons:
1. The development community here is top-notch IMO and while I havnt been able to see other engine's communities I would have to say if it werent for the GG Forums, Resources and Content Packs I would not have my project almost at Demo status.
2. The support of TorqueScript is a serious helper, while I am not an experienced c++ programmer I'd have to say learning TorqueScript has actually helped me ease into programming syntax and is making things easier while learning c++.(even with prior VB knowledge)
While there are more reasons that I prefer Torque, I would have to say that those are the most substantial reasons.
When I purchased this Engine, my sole reason was that I would be able to do anything I wanted with it, and while my skills determine what I can accomplish I have not had much stand in the way with some help from fellow GG'ers.
#12
08/23/2009 (9:35 pm)
Quote:us Indie Developers who don't have $350 of disposable incomeIndie is short for Independent not short for Poor!
Quote:disposable incomeHow is funding your dream disposable?
#13
In my case it stands for poor, lol... yet I still have my dream! :)
08/23/2009 (9:41 pm)
"Indie is short for Independent not short for Poor!"In my case it stands for poor, lol... yet I still have my dream! :)
#14
1. good comunity, resources, i learn.... for 3 years... lol, not full time obviously...
2. i can make anything or gameplay that i want (with the proper skills)
3. I still have my dream!, independent indie or casual developer.
08/24/2009 (12:04 am)
@CSMP, yes i second that:1. good comunity, resources, i learn.... for 3 years... lol, not full time obviously...
2. i can make anything or gameplay that i want (with the proper skills)
3. I still have my dream!, independent indie or casual developer.
#15
Within a year of my initial $150 investment for TGE, a little less than two years ago, I had already recovered that expense and could justify my purchase of TGEa... along with a few other odds and ends.
It was also this "hobby", this "dream", that made it possible for me to afford cello lessons :) That means that I have netted well over that $350 assessment made above -- and I still haven't even released a game!. So, disposable income? Sure, why not, I'm glad I had it.
08/24/2009 (2:27 am)
Tools... costs... it's all irrelevant if you don't try. You have to try in order to compare. I can compare, I've tried various SDK's, tools, so-called "game-makers". GDK was a joke to me. Unity has a wow! editor and awesome artflow, but I quickly found the confines of the sandbox! And the FpsGameCreator was an amusing toy for about a week.... and oh, the list could go on and on! Now each of those tools mentioned have their merits & flaws, and yes a serious developer could manage with any of them. I chose what gave me the most value for what I wanted -- and haven't looked back since!Within a year of my initial $150 investment for TGE, a little less than two years ago, I had already recovered that expense and could justify my purchase of TGEa... along with a few other odds and ends.
It was also this "hobby", this "dream", that made it possible for me to afford cello lessons :) That means that I have netted well over that $350 assessment made above -- and I still haven't even released a game!. So, disposable income? Sure, why not, I'm glad I had it.
#16
But if you're running a business, as an Indie or otherwise, you have to understand that the price tag of a product is not the only cost associated with that product. Time is money, and more often than not, time is much more money than any product you will purchase.
Even if a premium tool saves you 10 minutes a day over a free alternative, that 10 minutes a day, over the lifetime of a game project, can easily pay for that tool.
Let's say a game takes a year to develop. That's 52 weeks. Now let's say you take off weekends, and 2 weeks vacation every year. That's 250 days * 10 minutes a day = 2500 minutes, or ~41.5 hours.
If your time is worth $25 an hour, which is low for any discipline in the game industry, that right there pays for a Torque3D Pro license in full.
I would submit that having access to the source, as well as the large number of awesome tools that come out of the box with T3D, will save many people a LOT more than 10 minutes a day over most of the freely available products out there.
08/24/2009 (2:50 am)
Free and cheap products have their place, and the price is right, of course. Especially for hobbyists who can't afford to spend much money on it, and just want to do it for personal enjoyment.But if you're running a business, as an Indie or otherwise, you have to understand that the price tag of a product is not the only cost associated with that product. Time is money, and more often than not, time is much more money than any product you will purchase.
Even if a premium tool saves you 10 minutes a day over a free alternative, that 10 minutes a day, over the lifetime of a game project, can easily pay for that tool.
Let's say a game takes a year to develop. That's 52 weeks. Now let's say you take off weekends, and 2 weeks vacation every year. That's 250 days * 10 minutes a day = 2500 minutes, or ~41.5 hours.
If your time is worth $25 an hour, which is low for any discipline in the game industry, that right there pays for a Torque3D Pro license in full.
I would submit that having access to the source, as well as the large number of awesome tools that come out of the box with T3D, will save many people a LOT more than 10 minutes a day over most of the freely available products out there.
#17
In addition TGC are hell-bent on making the bulk of their money from selling you masses of add-ons and packs that should have perhaps been included in the first place at times (there never free), the package never really feels fully complete (I must have bought £100's of worth in DB Pro case) sometimes, their akin to EA's sims in terms of add-ons.
Add this to the fact that unless you play with GDK, their toolset is window's only (non-web, mobile or iphone). Also the language doesn't offer much transfer to other languages such as C / Java or javascript etc meaning it's not very impressive on your CV as no one's using it in a job-hiring professional environment.
I've also seen very few commercial success stories with FPS creator / FPSC 10 and (although more) DB Pro compared to Torque / 3D Gamecreator and a few others. I don't think it's necessarily because the toolset isn't capable, but more because you really have to go the extra mile to add in the things they didn't supply you with in the first place (GUI editor, 3d editing etc) and your limited to where you can put the games (I thing FPSC games are 50mb plus regardless of whether there's 1 level or 50) which limits the chances of commercial success.
In short, I just think toolsets like gg's have always been more professional (not always the cheapest or easiest to use granted) in a commercial sense then the likes of TGC, after all, how many AAA studios are using TGC tools to develop games and products?
EDIT: The reason I mentioned the add-ons selling philosophy at TGC is to make the point that you are unlikely to save money in most cases because you have spent the same amount of money as some of the more expensive engines by the time your finished (Especially with DB Pro / FPSC :S).
08/24/2009 (6:20 am)
I'm a previous user of The Game Creators products (specifically DB Pro) and in places I'm a fan. My problem with their tools were they're weren't any. I'd spend ages programming GUI code or building mini 3d engines to position objects and stuff instead of making games.In addition TGC are hell-bent on making the bulk of their money from selling you masses of add-ons and packs that should have perhaps been included in the first place at times (there never free), the package never really feels fully complete (I must have bought £100's of worth in DB Pro case) sometimes, their akin to EA's sims in terms of add-ons.
Add this to the fact that unless you play with GDK, their toolset is window's only (non-web, mobile or iphone). Also the language doesn't offer much transfer to other languages such as C / Java or javascript etc meaning it's not very impressive on your CV as no one's using it in a job-hiring professional environment.
I've also seen very few commercial success stories with FPS creator / FPSC 10 and (although more) DB Pro compared to Torque / 3D Gamecreator and a few others. I don't think it's necessarily because the toolset isn't capable, but more because you really have to go the extra mile to add in the things they didn't supply you with in the first place (GUI editor, 3d editing etc) and your limited to where you can put the games (I thing FPSC games are 50mb plus regardless of whether there's 1 level or 50) which limits the chances of commercial success.
In short, I just think toolsets like gg's have always been more professional (not always the cheapest or easiest to use granted) in a commercial sense then the likes of TGC, after all, how many AAA studios are using TGC tools to develop games and products?
EDIT: The reason I mentioned the add-ons selling philosophy at TGC is to make the point that you are unlikely to save money in most cases because you have spent the same amount of money as some of the more expensive engines by the time your finished (Especially with DB Pro / FPSC :S).
#18
08/24/2009 (8:59 am)
I switched from A6 to Torque (1.4.2) to Torque3D now. I own DarkBasic Pro and a bunch of the add-ons. I agree that the add-on concept was a non-starter with me. WindowsGUI and rotations add-on? (as are AI, Physics, Shaders) ... gimme a break... 
#19
08/24/2009 (12:51 pm)
There are ton´s of engines out there and the most importent thing to remember is the company behind the engine... My vote goes to GG :) 
#20
08/24/2009 (12:55 pm)
This really is a non-issue. You decide where you want to put your time investment. If that means working a side job to earning some extra money ($350), then that's what you do. In the grand scheme of things $350 is a drop in the bucket and extremely affordable. If your really serious about getting into game dev, you'll find a way to make things happen. 
Torque Owner Javier Canon
gdk.thegamecreators.com
but anyways, you dont have the sourcecode, i think that use TGE 1.52 or TGB, still is a good option for indie development.