TGEA and T3D in Linux
by Jesse Liles · 07/14/2009 (10:37 pm) · 29 comments
I have been working with TGEA in the vague attempt to get Veks running in a shaderized engine. After spending quite some time getting it to work, the thought that had been nagging in my brain refused to be pushed aside.
"What about the Linux dedicated server? What about Linux gamers?"
I decided to return development to TGE primarily for these reasons. The graphics may not be on the same level, I may not have shaders, I may even lose some potential customers because the 'eye candy' just isn't what it could be. You know what? I just don't feel like those are good enough reasons to abandon Linux. The fact is that I love Linux. I have enjoyed working with it since the first time I installed Slackware 2.0. I love using it and I love the freedom of it.
I absolutely understand the reasons that GarageGames has given us regarding the cessation of Linux support in their game engines. We as the community have been passed the gauntlet of building and supporting the Linux versions of the awesome Torque family of game engines. As yet, it hasn't happened. I've seen some passing mention of people making TGEA work as a dedicated server in Linux, but they haven't (as far as I am aware) ever shared the code with the rest of us. I've seen many people suggesting that it shouldn't be too hard to take the Mac platform code from TGEA and port it for Linux. And mostly I've seen a lot of people talking. Nobody has taken action. I'm just as guilty as everybody else in this respect. I haven't ported the engine, and I don't have any idea of where to start. This brings me to my point. There are members of this community who have the skills to accomplish porting TGEA and T3D to Linux. Perhaps even GarageGames has employees that would be capable of this, if it were financially feasible. These individuals may have even begun some initial forays into accomplishing this goal for their own purposes. I understand that without being financially compensated, these select individuals may not have the motivation to complete such a project in their own time and selflessly donate the results to the community. So how much money do they want, to accomplish this goal? How much money are we, as a community of developers, willing to contribute to this cause?
I'm not trying to flame anybody here, and I'm not trying to build any negative sentiment, I just feel like we as a community, those of us who want to develop games for Linux as well as for Mac and Windows, need to come together if we want to accomplish that goal. If anybody has a constructive suggestion for getting this done, getting this code to the community, I'd very much like to hear about it.
"What about the Linux dedicated server? What about Linux gamers?"
I decided to return development to TGE primarily for these reasons. The graphics may not be on the same level, I may not have shaders, I may even lose some potential customers because the 'eye candy' just isn't what it could be. You know what? I just don't feel like those are good enough reasons to abandon Linux. The fact is that I love Linux. I have enjoyed working with it since the first time I installed Slackware 2.0. I love using it and I love the freedom of it.
I absolutely understand the reasons that GarageGames has given us regarding the cessation of Linux support in their game engines. We as the community have been passed the gauntlet of building and supporting the Linux versions of the awesome Torque family of game engines. As yet, it hasn't happened. I've seen some passing mention of people making TGEA work as a dedicated server in Linux, but they haven't (as far as I am aware) ever shared the code with the rest of us. I've seen many people suggesting that it shouldn't be too hard to take the Mac platform code from TGEA and port it for Linux. And mostly I've seen a lot of people talking. Nobody has taken action. I'm just as guilty as everybody else in this respect. I haven't ported the engine, and I don't have any idea of where to start. This brings me to my point. There are members of this community who have the skills to accomplish porting TGEA and T3D to Linux. Perhaps even GarageGames has employees that would be capable of this, if it were financially feasible. These individuals may have even begun some initial forays into accomplishing this goal for their own purposes. I understand that without being financially compensated, these select individuals may not have the motivation to complete such a project in their own time and selflessly donate the results to the community. So how much money do they want, to accomplish this goal? How much money are we, as a community of developers, willing to contribute to this cause?
I'm not trying to flame anybody here, and I'm not trying to build any negative sentiment, I just feel like we as a community, those of us who want to develop games for Linux as well as for Mac and Windows, need to come together if we want to accomplish that goal. If anybody has a constructive suggestion for getting this done, getting this code to the community, I'd very much like to hear about it.
About the author
#2
07/14/2009 (11:25 pm)
Hopefully something comes up for T3D on the server side. There isn't a large market on the client side (still a good niche thing to attract people as much as having a Mac client will do as well), the server side really is more needed if you plan on going that route. I guess you can just run XP on a bunch of servers, but that just makes me feel dirty and buying Server to run absolutely no Windows services is just a waste of money. 
#3
Don't get me wrong, it would be awesome to be able to support Linux Gamers and use Linux dedicated servers on the back-end, and I really hope that something can be done about it.
For now however I have resigned myself to continue forward with TGEA and hopefully be able to support Linux sooner or later ... but it isn't my primary focus.
07/15/2009 (2:47 am)
@Jesse: I am in the same boat, unfortunately the proportion of Linux gamers is actually not that large ... the dedicated server issue however has been a problem for me.Don't get me wrong, it would be awesome to be able to support Linux Gamers and use Linux dedicated servers on the back-end, and I really hope that something can be done about it.
For now however I have resigned myself to continue forward with TGEA and hopefully be able to support Linux sooner or later ... but it isn't my primary focus.
#4
Count me on the people who want it to happen, but haven't the technical skills to accomplish it; so Im on board, but I guess from a financial standpoint, or other kind of collaboration.
Ive been discussing this same topic on other thread, more people to team up with: T3 Linux Port
07/15/2009 (11:26 am)
Excellent post.Count me on the people who want it to happen, but haven't the technical skills to accomplish it; so Im on board, but I guess from a financial standpoint, or other kind of collaboration.
Ive been discussing this same topic on other thread, more people to team up with: T3 Linux Port
#5
Right now T3D OSX only supports Basic Lighting, and I assume Advanced Lighting is being postponed until the Windows version is finalized, and there's odds it might not even come to be because I think not everything being done in Direct3D right now has a direct equivalent in OSX's OpenGL and maintaining two entire sets of shaders (HLSL and GLSL) is incredibly time-consuming. The fact that the vast majority of Macs have mid-low-range or low-range GPUs, which are mostly unsuitable for Advanced Lighting anyway, makes things more complicated.
In the end, Linux combines the worst of the other two platforms: it runs in a range of hardware as wide as Windows (plus the different distros) and its potential game-buying userbase is smaller than OSX's.
HOWEVER, nobody in their right mind who's developing a server-based online games would setup their servers using Windows. Linux is king in the server business, so a Linux port capable only of running as dedicated server (no graphics, sound or input) would be useful for a ton of people.
07/15/2009 (2:43 pm)
The major problem is OpenGL. Unfortunately, doing high-end (PS 2.0+) graphics with OpenGL and getting them running consistently across different GPUs and drivers is quite a challenge. Right now T3D OSX only supports Basic Lighting, and I assume Advanced Lighting is being postponed until the Windows version is finalized, and there's odds it might not even come to be because I think not everything being done in Direct3D right now has a direct equivalent in OSX's OpenGL and maintaining two entire sets of shaders (HLSL and GLSL) is incredibly time-consuming. The fact that the vast majority of Macs have mid-low-range or low-range GPUs, which are mostly unsuitable for Advanced Lighting anyway, makes things more complicated.
In the end, Linux combines the worst of the other two platforms: it runs in a range of hardware as wide as Windows (plus the different distros) and its potential game-buying userbase is smaller than OSX's.
HOWEVER, nobody in their right mind who's developing a server-based online games would setup their servers using Windows. Linux is king in the server business, so a Linux port capable only of running as dedicated server (no graphics, sound or input) would be useful for a ton of people.
#6
07/15/2009 (2:50 pm)
I did a Rokkitball Linux dedicated binary at one point, and I do not recall the process being difficult at all. Use the GFXNullDevice, --dedicated flag, and fix whatever code GCC decides to complain about this minor point release and that was all it took IIRC.
#7
@Manoel: I know there are significant hurdles in developing a client binary for Linux, and I am also in agreement about the lack of a significant game-buying Linux user base. It may not be a huge financial reward to develop games that Linux users can play, but it would be a small step toward making the gap between the markets that much smaller. As far as a Linux server goes, it's not the whole journey but it would be an excellent first step.
@Pat: Thanks for bringing that up, I know it's not a difficult process for somebody with the skills, but we don't all possess those skills. What is the likelihood of you (or anybody else with a similar experience) releasing a resource that would provide us with the platform layer and build files needed for a Linux dedicated server build of TGEA 1.8.1? I know you're all busy with the T3D beta, and at the risk of sounding like I'm begging, is there any chance you could figure out a way for the Rokkitball code you've spoken of or something similar that would work with a standard build of TGEA finding it's way into the community's hands?
@Anybody in GarageGames who can make this decision:
Any chance we as the community could pitch in some cash to get a Linux build for TGEA and T3D? Maybe sell us a Linux server pack for TGEA and perhaps even T3D when it's ready? I know you guys have your hands full with T3D, and I know the decision to stop supporting Linux was not an easy one to make. What kind of mountain would need to be moved to make it a possibility again?
07/15/2009 (5:53 pm)
@Novack: Good to know you're on board, I think with some organization this idea could work; it's just a matter of getting the right people into the right places.@Manoel: I know there are significant hurdles in developing a client binary for Linux, and I am also in agreement about the lack of a significant game-buying Linux user base. It may not be a huge financial reward to develop games that Linux users can play, but it would be a small step toward making the gap between the markets that much smaller. As far as a Linux server goes, it's not the whole journey but it would be an excellent first step.
@Pat: Thanks for bringing that up, I know it's not a difficult process for somebody with the skills, but we don't all possess those skills. What is the likelihood of you (or anybody else with a similar experience) releasing a resource that would provide us with the platform layer and build files needed for a Linux dedicated server build of TGEA 1.8.1? I know you're all busy with the T3D beta, and at the risk of sounding like I'm begging, is there any chance you could figure out a way for the Rokkitball code you've spoken of or something similar that would work with a standard build of TGEA finding it's way into the community's hands?
@Anybody in GarageGames who can make this decision:
Any chance we as the community could pitch in some cash to get a Linux build for TGEA and T3D? Maybe sell us a Linux server pack for TGEA and perhaps even T3D when it's ready? I know you guys have your hands full with T3D, and I know the decision to stop supporting Linux was not an easy one to make. What kind of mountain would need to be moved to make it a possibility again?
#8
server T3D (GG supported)
And $150 for server & client T3D (fully GG supported)
If I sold my game to just 10 Linux users at $15 each then I make back
my money :)
From GG point of view if we say there are currently 500 T3D owners,
and, say 90% would like to support Linux in some way, then:
If all of those want at least server support, that's $50 x 450 = $22,500
If 50% of those want server & client, that's ($150-$50) x 225 = $22,500
A total of $50,000.
Now, I have no clue, but I suspect the potential customer base for T3D
once released might be 10,000 licenses in a year.. you do the math :)
The above is from an Indie point of view, I suspect you could charge
x5 for a full commercial licence.
Obviously all the above figures are a case of best guess :)
Hewster
07/16/2009 (1:19 am)
Personally I would be happy to pay an extra $50 for a Linux dedicatedserver T3D (GG supported)
And $150 for server & client T3D (fully GG supported)
If I sold my game to just 10 Linux users at $15 each then I make back
my money :)
From GG point of view if we say there are currently 500 T3D owners,
and, say 90% would like to support Linux in some way, then:
If all of those want at least server support, that's $50 x 450 = $22,500
If 50% of those want server & client, that's ($150-$50) x 225 = $22,500
A total of $50,000.
Now, I have no clue, but I suspect the potential customer base for T3D
once released might be 10,000 licenses in a year.. you do the math :)
The above is from an Indie point of view, I suspect you could charge
x5 for a full commercial licence.
Obviously all the above figures are a case of best guess :)
Hewster
#9
07/16/2009 (2:12 am)
I like your rough estimation Hewster. At least it looks like GG could hire one programmer for $50.000 (or less) dedicated to Linux things - maybe for other products as well :) 
#10
Would GarageGames be willing to host the project for the community of license owners interested?
07/16/2009 (7:57 am)
Count me in. I'll be willing to help where I can, I'm not that great when it comes to the internals though. Like Hewster, I'd be willing to pay for a dedicated Linux server and/or client, and those figures sound pretty reasonable to me. Otherwise, we can take a stab at doing what Pat mentioned.Would GarageGames be willing to host the project for the community of license owners interested?
#11
07/16/2009 (5:01 pm)
I asked about this on the GG IRC Hour today and it appears certain that nothing will be done on the GG end at least until after T3D 1.0 is released. After that it really is up to a couple of individuals. One thing of note, specifically regarding a Linux dedicated server for T3D:Quote:
<[GG]AlexS> If anyone does a Linux port, send a patch to me at 'alexsc at garagegames dot com', and I will review it and possibly put it in trunk.
#12
12/04/2009 (9:57 am)
Any further movement on this?
#13
02/03/2010 (1:25 pm)
I have the technical skills to help with this and I would be willing to help out. I am a DeVry student and we are using Torque and I can't get any of the source code to compile because it is too old or uses weird calls. I'm studying openGL and directx this semester and there isn't a reason why torque can't be ported. We just need the source code of T3D to get started. Before this would happen though, we need to get organized. We need a "boss", maybe someone that works at GG, to make it happen. I'm going to grad school for game design after I finish my bachelors in game design at DeVry and this would be a nice project. I'm also working with Torque1.5 in a class I'm taking now and would like to get the audio working for it or just be able to compile it from source. 
#14
02/03/2010 (1:40 pm)
@Brian - This is an interesting issue. Since this is in the wrong forum, please e-mail me directly: michaelp@torquepowered.com
#15
How is this in the wrong forum? The topic here is "TGEA and T3D in Linux" and that is exactly what Brian is referencing.
@Brian,
I'd be happy to help you with your compiling issues. I'd also like to hear your ideas on how to proceed with getting either TGEA or T3D ported to Linux.
02/03/2010 (1:52 pm)
@Michael,How is this in the wrong forum? The topic here is "TGEA and T3D in Linux" and that is exactly what Brian is referencing.
@Brian,
I'd be happy to help you with your compiling issues. I'd also like to hear your ideas on how to proceed with getting either TGEA or T3D ported to Linux.
#16
1. He is a student
2. He is requesting free access to source
3. He is requesting official support ("Boss")
He is more than welcome to post general advice or answer questions based on his existing knowledge. However, he is getting into requests that might best be answered via e-mail. It's not the usual circumstance, so I have my reasons.
02/03/2010 (2:08 pm)
@Jamin -1. He is a student
2. He is requesting free access to source
3. He is requesting official support ("Boss")
He is more than welcome to post general advice or answer questions based on his existing knowledge. However, he is getting into requests that might best be answered via e-mail. It's not the usual circumstance, so I have my reasons.
#17
1. Whether he's a student or not has no bearing on whether the post is on topic here or not. At least none that I'm aware of.
2. Where does he request free access to the source code? At no point did Brian mention free access to the code. All he stated was we would need access to the code, which we would.
3. I don't see him requesting "official support" in fact his post states " maybe someone that works at GG". All he's indicating is that we would need someone to coordinate the effort, which we would, and that it might be best if that person was someone at GG, but by no means is this a requirement.
In short, you're reading far too much into Brian's posting that isn't actually stated in Brian's posting.
02/03/2010 (2:19 pm)
@Michael,1. Whether he's a student or not has no bearing on whether the post is on topic here or not. At least none that I'm aware of.
2. Where does he request free access to the source code? At no point did Brian mention free access to the code. All he stated was we would need access to the code, which we would.
3. I don't see him requesting "official support" in fact his post states " maybe someone that works at GG". All he's indicating is that we would need someone to coordinate the effort, which we would, and that it might be best if that person was someone at GG, but by no means is this a requirement.
In short, you're reading far too much into Brian's posting that isn't actually stated in Brian's posting.
#18
2. My interpretation of "We just need the source code of T3D to get started" was that he has no access and is looking for access. It was not implied that he was looking to purchase, but I guess it was not implied he was looking for a grant either. This may be a misinterpretation that can go either way.
3. The inquiry here brought up the concept of someone at this company overseeing the project. Whether this is a maybe, requirement, or external, the issue was proposed and we only respond to this via e-mail now.
I'm not going round and round with you on this Jamin. I have my reasons for my responses. As an employee, moderator, and existing community member, I have valid justifications for them. Please allow Brian to respond for himself, as my posts were directed at him.
02/03/2010 (2:28 pm)
1. Not that you are aware of, because it's an internal protocol.2. My interpretation of "We just need the source code of T3D to get started" was that he has no access and is looking for access. It was not implied that he was looking to purchase, but I guess it was not implied he was looking for a grant either. This may be a misinterpretation that can go either way.
3. The inquiry here brought up the concept of someone at this company overseeing the project. Whether this is a maybe, requirement, or external, the issue was proposed and we only respond to this via e-mail now.
I'm not going round and round with you on this Jamin. I have my reasons for my responses. As an employee, moderator, and existing community member, I have valid justifications for them. Please allow Brian to respond for himself, as my posts were directed at him.
#19
It's cool. Don't start a flame war over this. If T3D is supposed to be community supported then we should get a community to support it. That's all I wanted to do. If it's supposed to be supported that way then the people that are going to do the support need the source code to do so- right? Wouldn't we all agree? I develop games on Linux and I am being forced to use Torque and would like to learn more about it so I can do well in school. This is the thread that's supposed to be for people that want to support Torque for Linux right? Well, that's why I'm here. I want to do this for class and maybe later for the company I wish to create later. If GG wants my money then they need to start wooing me now while I am forced to use torque or they will loose my business. The fact that this thread exists at all gives me hope that maybe GG is serious about supporting Linux. Frankly, after this class is over, I'm probably going to code for O3D which is open source and backed by Google. Just putting Google's ads in my games would make me lots of money. O3D also doesn't discriminate against any operating system. I have it installed as a plugin to my browser right now.
02/03/2010 (4:28 pm)
Hey guys,It's cool. Don't start a flame war over this. If T3D is supposed to be community supported then we should get a community to support it. That's all I wanted to do. If it's supposed to be supported that way then the people that are going to do the support need the source code to do so- right? Wouldn't we all agree? I develop games on Linux and I am being forced to use Torque and would like to learn more about it so I can do well in school. This is the thread that's supposed to be for people that want to support Torque for Linux right? Well, that's why I'm here. I want to do this for class and maybe later for the company I wish to create later. If GG wants my money then they need to start wooing me now while I am forced to use torque or they will loose my business. The fact that this thread exists at all gives me hope that maybe GG is serious about supporting Linux. Frankly, after this class is over, I'm probably going to code for O3D which is open source and backed by Google. Just putting Google's ads in my games would make me lots of money. O3D also doesn't discriminate against any operating system. I have it installed as a plugin to my browser right now.
#20
TGE, TGEA, and schools are separate matters all together.
02/03/2010 (5:06 pm)
@Brian - Thanks for the reply. Just to be clear: Torque 3D Linux would be a community supported project. The purchasable stock Torque 3D is supported by the Torque engine team. We previously stated we have no plans at all to support Linux OS. A community based project has all of our blessings, but we have no available resources to dedicate to the cause. Anyone who wishes to be a part of that project must own a Torque 3D Pro license.TGE, TGEA, and schools are separate matters all together.
Torque Owner Gerald Fishel
Development Ninja
Unfortunately I'm in the middle of a crunch with some other stuff at the moment, so it will be a little while before I can really get around to it, but sometime in the next couple of weeks I'll be able to dig into it.
I'm enlisting the services of my brother, at the cost of a T3D pro license for him. He's a quintessential Linux code monkey, so there is a reasonably high chance of success I think.