My views on GarageGames,XNA, and C#
by Ben Ewing · 08/31/2006 (7:21 pm) · 39 comments
I wrote this at school today out of boredom, and get my thoughts down on paper.
(And this is my first .plan, I hope it isn't taken to negatively)
Well, lots of awesome things are being done by the guys at the Garage, but I've been noticing a trend with there newer products (TSE/TorqueX). They've been straying farther and farther away from Cross-Platform support, which was one of the deciding factors for me when I bought TGE (As well as TGB).
TSE is going to be released without OpenGL/Cross Platform support, though it is promised, and TorqueX using XNA, it seems like GG's is jumping on the MicroSoft bandwagon, then again, this is obviously a very large opportunity for Indies.
But, it also looks as if Indies aren't GG's main target anymore. TGE Indie with source is still $100, but TGB with source is $250, TGB is a great engine, and I love messing around with it, but $250 seems a bit steep for a 2D. This concerns me, obviously the prices are going to go up on new products.
TSE, which should be released soon, will most likely be priced very high seeing that it will be a full fledged 3D engine, and possibly to step for Indies. TorqueX might be even more expensive, seeing that it seems to be GG's killer app, encompassing TSE and TGB.
To me this all seems to me like GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over, group by group. Despite this, I love messing around in TGB and TGE, I haven't done anything intended for commercial release, but I have done a bunch of cool stuff with TGB (Four way pong, Online Rock Paper Scissors [ Which doesn't work too well...] , and some other stuff) and TGE ( Me and Matt Vitelli are working on a little fantasy RPG right now).
Which brings me to a former personal conflict. I'm still fairly new to C++, I can do some basic stuff with it, and I have done a few little OpenGL apps in it, but since C# started to become more and more popular I had started to ask myself if I should stop learning C++ and start concentrating on C#. So I went on the #GID channel and asked what everyone's views on C++ Vs. C# were, and I got some great advice from someone (I think it was Fosters :/, but I cant ay for sure). He said that a programmer shouldn't worry about petty things such as what language or IDE he/she is using, but just get the job done. Which settled my conflict.
This is all for now, please don't flame on this, these are just my personal views, based on what I know.
(And this is my first .plan, I hope it isn't taken to negatively)
Well, lots of awesome things are being done by the guys at the Garage, but I've been noticing a trend with there newer products (TSE/TorqueX). They've been straying farther and farther away from Cross-Platform support, which was one of the deciding factors for me when I bought TGE (As well as TGB).
TSE is going to be released without OpenGL/Cross Platform support, though it is promised, and TorqueX using XNA, it seems like GG's is jumping on the MicroSoft bandwagon, then again, this is obviously a very large opportunity for Indies.
But, it also looks as if Indies aren't GG's main target anymore. TGE Indie with source is still $100, but TGB with source is $250, TGB is a great engine, and I love messing around with it, but $250 seems a bit steep for a 2D. This concerns me, obviously the prices are going to go up on new products.
TSE, which should be released soon, will most likely be priced very high seeing that it will be a full fledged 3D engine, and possibly to step for Indies. TorqueX might be even more expensive, seeing that it seems to be GG's killer app, encompassing TSE and TGB.
To me this all seems to me like GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over, group by group. Despite this, I love messing around in TGB and TGE, I haven't done anything intended for commercial release, but I have done a bunch of cool stuff with TGB (Four way pong, Online Rock Paper Scissors [ Which doesn't work too well...] , and some other stuff) and TGE ( Me and Matt Vitelli are working on a little fantasy RPG right now).
Which brings me to a former personal conflict. I'm still fairly new to C++, I can do some basic stuff with it, and I have done a few little OpenGL apps in it, but since C# started to become more and more popular I had started to ask myself if I should stop learning C++ and start concentrating on C#. So I went on the #GID channel and asked what everyone's views on C++ Vs. C# were, and I got some great advice from someone (I think it was Fosters :/, but I cant ay for sure). He said that a programmer shouldn't worry about petty things such as what language or IDE he/she is using, but just get the job done. Which settled my conflict.
This is all for now, please don't flame on this, these are just my personal views, based on what I know.
#2
As for pricing, I was glad to see the new changes. They have still left an avenue for the hobbyist at $100, but priced the source at a reasonable $250. Most people who will actually end up making source code changes will not have a problem spending $250, as it would more than likely be the cheapest tool in their arsenal. I think raising the prices is a good thing; it attracts a more competent group, increases the effectiveness of GG by increased revenue, will thin out some of the clueless people that should be learning the basics of coding first anyway, and will result in a more professional user base. I'm overstating it a bit, and surely there are exceptions and a few talented people who can't afford the new prices, but as for the majority, I think it fits pretty well. This is really business 101 which boils down to profit maximizing and finding price equilibrium relative to elasticity. Basic business decisions in my opinion, and it is good to see GG making them; makes me feel confident that GG will be around for years to come.
Just my personal 10 cents
Brandon
08/31/2006 (7:51 pm)
Good read. I agree with Foster about languages. I would learn as much about each one that applies to the projects you are working on. I usually end up using at least 2 languages (not including scripting) almost everyday at work, so become proficient with as many as is applicable (in my opinion).As for pricing, I was glad to see the new changes. They have still left an avenue for the hobbyist at $100, but priced the source at a reasonable $250. Most people who will actually end up making source code changes will not have a problem spending $250, as it would more than likely be the cheapest tool in their arsenal. I think raising the prices is a good thing; it attracts a more competent group, increases the effectiveness of GG by increased revenue, will thin out some of the clueless people that should be learning the basics of coding first anyway, and will result in a more professional user base. I'm overstating it a bit, and surely there are exceptions and a few talented people who can't afford the new prices, but as for the majority, I think it fits pretty well. This is really business 101 which boils down to profit maximizing and finding price equilibrium relative to elasticity. Basic business decisions in my opinion, and it is good to see GG making them; makes me feel confident that GG will be around for years to come.
Just my personal 10 cents
Brandon
#3
XNA will be amazing because it will allow you to write one game that will work on both PCs and X360, at last giving indies a path into the console market. It will also allow people to get into game programming easier because C# and managed code are easier to learn and use, even if there might be performance drawbacks (which I don't think there will be once they finish optimizing everything). And GG has said that TorqueX will be $99 (and XNA is free to download) which will make it the best deal around once it is finished.
08/31/2006 (8:02 pm)
Don't take this the wrong way, but why is cross-platform capability important to you? Look at any market share analysis and Mac/Linux together are less than 10%, when it comes to games they probably have even less presence. Is it really worth the trouble to port your game to mac/linux for such a small audience?XNA will be amazing because it will allow you to write one game that will work on both PCs and X360, at last giving indies a path into the console market. It will also allow people to get into game programming easier because C# and managed code are easier to learn and use, even if there might be performance drawbacks (which I don't think there will be once they finish optimizing everything). And GG has said that TorqueX will be $99 (and XNA is free to download) which will make it the best deal around once it is finished.
#4
This has been a concern of mine recently, too. The only reason I have torque licenses is that torque builds and runs on the machines I own; notably linux and mac.
As a hobbyist rather than a "real" game developer, I have no interest in products that will allow me to reach greater heights hocking products to publishers; I wanna play with game stuff on my personal time and machines, maybe one day releasing a game and making millions. And I wanna do it on the platforms that I like to work on.
I'm going on the fact that if they pull the plug on everything I'm using torque for, I still have a torque license that works for what I want to do. If anything new that GG builds doesn't satisfy my requirements or they put the kaibosh on what I'm achieving now, I'll just not purchase the new products or move my current work onto other engines.
I don't think that GG's prices are out of reach of "indies" at all. I think that they're leaving the reach of hobbyists, though, which is probably what you really meant.
Gary (-;
08/31/2006 (8:05 pm)
Quote:They've been straying farther and farther away from Cross-Platform support, which was one of the deciding factors for me when I bought TGE (As well as TGB).
This has been a concern of mine recently, too. The only reason I have torque licenses is that torque builds and runs on the machines I own; notably linux and mac.
As a hobbyist rather than a "real" game developer, I have no interest in products that will allow me to reach greater heights hocking products to publishers; I wanna play with game stuff on my personal time and machines, maybe one day releasing a game and making millions. And I wanna do it on the platforms that I like to work on.
I'm going on the fact that if they pull the plug on everything I'm using torque for, I still have a torque license that works for what I want to do. If anything new that GG builds doesn't satisfy my requirements or they put the kaibosh on what I'm achieving now, I'll just not purchase the new products or move my current work onto other engines.
I don't think that GG's prices are out of reach of "indies" at all. I think that they're leaving the reach of hobbyists, though, which is probably what you really meant.
Gary (-;
#5
Because as a hobbyist, I don't care what the market is. And as a hardcore linux and mac developer without a windows machine, if I want to play with writing a game and eventually release one, I need cross platform toolkits to do it.
It's the same as people feel about languages; work with what makes you happy. Using windows makes me want to pound nails into my face, so doing primary development on windows isn't really fun for me.
Gary (-;
PS On the topic of languages, use whatever. All imperative languages are the same, and they all suck equally. Currently I'm using C++, C, perl, php, and torquescript on a daily basis. Learn a dozen languages and pick the one that works best for you, with your other tools of choice [you'll need to be using C++ if you want to program Torque internals. In the name of all that is good in the world, don't use C++ for web development].
08/31/2006 (8:14 pm)
Quote:Don't take this the wrong way, but why is cross-platform capability important to you? Look at any market share analysis and Mac/Linux together are less than 10%, when it comes to games they probably have even less presence. Is it really worth the trouble to port your game to mac/linux for such a small audience?
Because as a hobbyist, I don't care what the market is. And as a hardcore linux and mac developer without a windows machine, if I want to play with writing a game and eventually release one, I need cross platform toolkits to do it.
It's the same as people feel about languages; work with what makes you happy. Using windows makes me want to pound nails into my face, so doing primary development on windows isn't really fun for me.
Gary (-;
PS On the topic of languages, use whatever. All imperative languages are the same, and they all suck equally. Currently I'm using C++, C, perl, php, and torquescript on a daily basis. Learn a dozen languages and pick the one that works best for you, with your other tools of choice [you'll need to be using C++ if you want to program Torque internals. In the name of all that is good in the world, don't use C++ for web development].
#6
08/31/2006 (8:21 pm)
The mac market is rather starved for games and an excellent niche to targetl. It doesn't make much sense for EA to extend their huge budgets for non-existent shelfspace, but in an electronic delivery medium it makes good sense. Of course, I also agree with Jeff T on his analysis of Apple's game support recently. 
#7
With regards to the OpenGL/Linux support though I do think it is important. Linux support for dedicated servers in particular on TSE is important. OpenGL support for mac portability is also somewhat important. But I can also understand that Windows and the platforms are were the money is at, and in the end that is where the most attention must be spent.
08/31/2006 (9:28 pm)
With regards to engine pricing, it was inevitable. TGE came out 4 1/2 years ago and the price has always been the same $100. When it originally came out it was $100 + 50% royalties if you published at GarageGames. Those regulations later were removed and it just became $100, and then 4 years go by and it remains the same. The price of gas has more than doubled, most things are more expensive now. Meanwhile TGE has stayed the same price and offered free upgrades this whole time. With regards to the OpenGL/Linux support though I do think it is important. Linux support for dedicated servers in particular on TSE is important. OpenGL support for mac portability is also somewhat important. But I can also understand that Windows and the platforms are were the money is at, and in the end that is where the most attention must be spent.
#8
08/31/2006 (9:52 pm)
Don't forget, too, that they have always stated cross-platform support is planned. They are running a business, guys, they can't afford to have a completed section collecting dust while they work on the Linux and Mac versions (which someone earlier said is less than 10% of the market). Better to make some money now by releasing the Windows toolkits and then work on porting them over after (while the cash is flowing in).
#9
I have plenty of SVN space to donate if the community would like to get these ports going and GG would just give us the nod.
Regards,
Dreamer
08/31/2006 (9:52 pm)
My personal opinion is that GG should start a community initiative to get these ports going, or give the community permission to do it themselves if they(gg) are not going to focus on Mac/Linux, or leave us so far behind that porting just becomes a "not worth it" proposition.I have plenty of SVN space to donate if the community would like to get these ports going and GG would just give us the nod.
Regards,
Dreamer
#10
Mac and Linux make a *huge* percentage of the casual games market, which is where most indie devs fit in, and it wasnt that long ago where PC games took less that 30% of GG's sales.
Saying they arent viable to develop for is only if your shooting for a spot on walmart's shelf and cant worry about the costs to develop for everything else. If you're doing a casual game, or intend to go with a digital distribution, i cant see how supporting the other platforms is bad. I mean, just becuase they take less than 10%(even though i know that isnt right) of the game market, why shy over them? That's just stupid.If you release a hit game on mac and linux, platforms nigh-starved for high-end games, they will buy it. it is that simple.
As for the actual cross platform support. I cannot even begin to conceive how you see TorqueX mattering when it comes to crossplatform. That just baffles my mind. TXE will never have cross platform support. Want to know why? Because you develop it on a freaking console. There is no point in cross platforming that system. That's just stupid.
As for TSE, i dont remembering seeing a post anywhere where GG laughed at everyone and said they where never going to put OGL in, so i'm pretty sure they intend to add it, even though they stated that it wouldnt be ready for 1.0. I can attest first hand trying to abstract both platforms is hard, so it's no suprise they opted to get it feature complete before trying to port everything, instead of gonig back over and over again.
If you're that skiddish that GG is out to screw you over, you really need to take a look at the history of this place.
As for the pricing, as others have said, to get such a low price for years, and free upgrades, it's not a huge suprise that they'd finally up the price alittle. And no, TSE wont cost you a huge amount. Final release will be priced at 295 for indies.
So TGE is 100, TGB + source(i'll touch on this in a minute) = $250, and TSE = $295. I'm pretty sure they all still sit within an indie's reach.
As for the pricing on TGB being 'high' lets consider for a moment why the pricing difference for the source and just TGB. TGB is designed to, without engine changes, to let you make a game, start to finish. It's designed so that you can make a WHOLE game through script, without the need of the source. *IF* you need the source to do something, that's above and beyond what the base product was built for, so it logically costs alittle bit more for the added flexibility. But ultimately, it's not a big deal, most people who use TGB probably dont need much in the way of engine changes anyways.
Concluding: Is crossplatform support important? Dang straight it is. But just because GG isnt handing it to you this second doesnt mean you need to write it off.
08/31/2006 (10:03 pm)
I really cant see where you people are getting the impression GG will pull crossplatform support.Mac and Linux make a *huge* percentage of the casual games market, which is where most indie devs fit in, and it wasnt that long ago where PC games took less that 30% of GG's sales.
Saying they arent viable to develop for is only if your shooting for a spot on walmart's shelf and cant worry about the costs to develop for everything else. If you're doing a casual game, or intend to go with a digital distribution, i cant see how supporting the other platforms is bad. I mean, just becuase they take less than 10%(even though i know that isnt right) of the game market, why shy over them? That's just stupid.If you release a hit game on mac and linux, platforms nigh-starved for high-end games, they will buy it. it is that simple.
As for the actual cross platform support. I cannot even begin to conceive how you see TorqueX mattering when it comes to crossplatform. That just baffles my mind. TXE will never have cross platform support. Want to know why? Because you develop it on a freaking console. There is no point in cross platforming that system. That's just stupid.
As for TSE, i dont remembering seeing a post anywhere where GG laughed at everyone and said they where never going to put OGL in, so i'm pretty sure they intend to add it, even though they stated that it wouldnt be ready for 1.0. I can attest first hand trying to abstract both platforms is hard, so it's no suprise they opted to get it feature complete before trying to port everything, instead of gonig back over and over again.
If you're that skiddish that GG is out to screw you over, you really need to take a look at the history of this place.
As for the pricing, as others have said, to get such a low price for years, and free upgrades, it's not a huge suprise that they'd finally up the price alittle. And no, TSE wont cost you a huge amount. Final release will be priced at 295 for indies.
So TGE is 100, TGB + source(i'll touch on this in a minute) = $250, and TSE = $295. I'm pretty sure they all still sit within an indie's reach.
As for the pricing on TGB being 'high' lets consider for a moment why the pricing difference for the source and just TGB. TGB is designed to, without engine changes, to let you make a game, start to finish. It's designed so that you can make a WHOLE game through script, without the need of the source. *IF* you need the source to do something, that's above and beyond what the base product was built for, so it logically costs alittle bit more for the added flexibility. But ultimately, it's not a big deal, most people who use TGB probably dont need much in the way of engine changes anyways.
Concluding: Is crossplatform support important? Dang straight it is. But just because GG isnt handing it to you this second doesnt mean you need to write it off.
#11
I'm trying to be nice here. Could you please explain this to me and the rest of the people working here at GarageGames. I simply am having a very hard time understanding what you mean with this statement.
-Jeff Tunnell, Co-Founder, GarageGames
edit: sp
08/31/2006 (11:22 pm)
Quote:To me this all seems to me like GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over, group by group.
I'm trying to be nice here. Could you please explain this to me and the rest of the people working here at GarageGames. I simply am having a very hard time understanding what you mean with this statement.
-Jeff Tunnell, Co-Founder, GarageGames
edit: sp
#12
08/31/2006 (11:43 pm)
I was puzzled by that too. And all the question-talk statements... and just about eveyrthing else... What are people ranting about?
#13
Torque X opens up a platform that was closed to indies before now. I remember reading somewhere that if you develop a game on TGB it should port over to Torque X without much work.
That there gives you the largest range of platforms anyone is offereing short of the $100k+ top end engines.
09/01/2006 (1:06 am)
Its is a bit odd. Name one other group of indie tools that supports Mac, Linux, PC and XBox 360! TSE is going to add linux and Mac support.Torque X opens up a platform that was closed to indies before now. I remember reading somewhere that if you develop a game on TGB it should port over to Torque X without much work.
That there gives you the largest range of platforms anyone is offereing short of the $100k+ top end engines.
#14
As for linux games.. it looks like a door has just opened up for a new game engine for linus. Get cracking linux guys. make a new game engine for linux. you guys are all hard core coders or you wouldn't be using linux. so make the next great linux game engine. you can do it. seriously. if i can make a game engine by myself for the company i work for... you guys can work together and make one. then YOU become the guys selling the indie game engine solution for linux. that a opportunity right there, i think.
09/01/2006 (1:20 am)
Try Unity for making games on the mac. Until the average mac user has a mac with an intel chip and can run windows.As for linux games.. it looks like a door has just opened up for a new game engine for linus. Get cracking linux guys. make a new game engine for linux. you guys are all hard core coders or you wouldn't be using linux. so make the next great linux game engine. you can do it. seriously. if i can make a game engine by myself for the company i work for... you guys can work together and make one. then YOU become the guys selling the indie game engine solution for linux. that a opportunity right there, i think.
#15
Not everyone needs to buy everything GG release. If GG wanted they could just bundle everything up together and call it the Torque toolkit, charge $2000 and never update it. It would still sell and be great value for money but instead they give us a choice to purchase only the things we need and constantly work to improve the products with free updates.
Have you even considered how much effort has gone into making these products and how long it would take you to create them from scratch?
-Greg.
09/01/2006 (1:25 am)
Screwing their customers? I almost feel guilty at purchasing the GG products at such cheap prices. I can't understand how anyone can complain that they are too expensive.Not everyone needs to buy everything GG release. If GG wanted they could just bundle everything up together and call it the Torque toolkit, charge $2000 and never update it. It would still sell and be great value for money but instead they give us a choice to purchase only the things we need and constantly work to improve the products with free updates.
Have you even considered how much effort has gone into making these products and how long it would take you to create them from scratch?
-Greg.
#16
It was me that said about the language thing, and yeh I was using Fosters as a nick at the time. Here is a translation of what I was too drunk to express non-sarcasticly on IRC ;-)
On the pricing thing ...
When you are at school your income is usually either non existent or very small. This makes $250 seem like a lot more then it actually is. When you are actually out working all week and earning a wage, $250 is not so much. So I wonder, are you coming from the point of view that it's too steep for indies or too steep for indies that are still in school ?
On the OpenGL thing ...
Try looking at it from GG's point of view. TSE is a huge chunk of work. When you get close to shipping, features get cut for the version that is currently shipping in order to allow more time to actually finish what is already there and other higher priority things. It does not mean that said features are cut entirely, it's just that they get pushed back to a future version. Writing a new renderer is no small task, and getting that running and as stable/reliable as would be needed for shipping 1.0 would push the release date back months.
Considering how often people in the community complain about TSE not shipping yet, if you were in GG's place, what would you do ?
On the XNA thing ...
XNA is for Windows / XBox 360. It's made by Microsoft. Why would it run on a non-Microsoft OS ? It is still a great opportunity. As has been stated elsewhere, Torque X is an additional engine ... it's not replacing the existing C++ engines.
One thing to consider is that GG can only announce so much at once. It just so happens that the majority of current announcements have been mostly Microsoft specific. That doesn't mean anything other then it's the turn of TSE and XNA to get announced. It seems that people forget everything that's unrelated to the current set of announcements and get all doom-saying if they don't like the current ones ;-)
If that's not enough ... GG has a full time Mac guy. Why would they employ someone full time for Mac stuff if they were dropping cross platform support ? Also, Constructor runs on Windows, Mac and Linux. It is significant work to support all 3, why would they do that if they were dropping non-Microsoft platforms ?
T.
09/01/2006 (1:56 am)
Hey Ben,It was me that said about the language thing, and yeh I was using Fosters as a nick at the time. Here is a translation of what I was too drunk to express non-sarcasticly on IRC ;-)
On the pricing thing ...
When you are at school your income is usually either non existent or very small. This makes $250 seem like a lot more then it actually is. When you are actually out working all week and earning a wage, $250 is not so much. So I wonder, are you coming from the point of view that it's too steep for indies or too steep for indies that are still in school ?
On the OpenGL thing ...
Try looking at it from GG's point of view. TSE is a huge chunk of work. When you get close to shipping, features get cut for the version that is currently shipping in order to allow more time to actually finish what is already there and other higher priority things. It does not mean that said features are cut entirely, it's just that they get pushed back to a future version. Writing a new renderer is no small task, and getting that running and as stable/reliable as would be needed for shipping 1.0 would push the release date back months.
Considering how often people in the community complain about TSE not shipping yet, if you were in GG's place, what would you do ?
On the XNA thing ...
XNA is for Windows / XBox 360. It's made by Microsoft. Why would it run on a non-Microsoft OS ? It is still a great opportunity. As has been stated elsewhere, Torque X is an additional engine ... it's not replacing the existing C++ engines.
One thing to consider is that GG can only announce so much at once. It just so happens that the majority of current announcements have been mostly Microsoft specific. That doesn't mean anything other then it's the turn of TSE and XNA to get announced. It seems that people forget everything that's unrelated to the current set of announcements and get all doom-saying if they don't like the current ones ;-)
If that's not enough ... GG has a full time Mac guy. Why would they employ someone full time for Mac stuff if they were dropping cross platform support ? Also, Constructor runs on Windows, Mac and Linux. It is significant work to support all 3, why would they do that if they were dropping non-Microsoft platforms ?
T.
#17
"They've been straying farther and farther away from Cross-Platform support"
This really baffled me since XNA is all about cross-platform... just because it doesn't involve a Mac doesn't mean it isn't a valid platform. The view of that reminds me of Mac users not caring about the Windows platform, or Windows users not caring about the Mac platform, or Linux users not caring about either. The truth is XNA is all about opening up platforms, whether they're platforms you like or not there are a lot of people that do and that's what we are all about here at GG, spreading our tech accross many useful platforms that pose an opportunity for Indies.
09/01/2006 (1:58 am)
I find your perspective and views interesting and think everyone has a right to express them."They've been straying farther and farther away from Cross-Platform support"
This really baffled me since XNA is all about cross-platform... just because it doesn't involve a Mac doesn't mean it isn't a valid platform. The view of that reminds me of Mac users not caring about the Windows platform, or Windows users not caring about the Mac platform, or Linux users not caring about either. The truth is XNA is all about opening up platforms, whether they're platforms you like or not there are a lot of people that do and that's what we are all about here at GG, spreading our tech accross many useful platforms that pose an opportunity for Indies.
#18
In the 5 years that I'm here now I bought TGE, TSE, TGB and some content packs. Maybe a value of around 500 US$. That makes an average of 100 US$ per year. Usually when I buy a tech book, it costs around 40-50 US$. So all the engines and stuff I bought is the equivalent of 2 (!) computer books a year. Let me re-cap: This is a montly cost of 8,33 US$ for me. This is less than one (!) good meal actually! If I break this down to daily costs, it is less than 0,28 US$ per day. Honestly, my daily newspaper costs even twice this money!
I don't want to flame here or attack someone's opinion or get too "numerical". I just wanted to show a different view (my view) on the costs of the engines. Yes, paying 100 US$ at once for an engine may sound much if you want to buy it, but if you see it through my eyes and over the last 5 years, the GG stuff is amazingly cheap. Ah, wait, I forgot to say I always bought the early adopter versions and saved some money so (except TGE).
Personally I wonder how these guys at GG survived over the years with so less money they want from us. Even my wife told me that this is by far the cheapest "hobby" I ever had. Could life be any better as having an absolution from my wife to buy GG products? Life is great... :-)
edit=typo
09/01/2006 (2:22 am)
Even if I would watch my game development as hobby, it would be by far the cheapest hobby I ever had.In the 5 years that I'm here now I bought TGE, TSE, TGB and some content packs. Maybe a value of around 500 US$. That makes an average of 100 US$ per year. Usually when I buy a tech book, it costs around 40-50 US$. So all the engines and stuff I bought is the equivalent of 2 (!) computer books a year. Let me re-cap: This is a montly cost of 8,33 US$ for me. This is less than one (!) good meal actually! If I break this down to daily costs, it is less than 0,28 US$ per day. Honestly, my daily newspaper costs even twice this money!
I don't want to flame here or attack someone's opinion or get too "numerical". I just wanted to show a different view (my view) on the costs of the engines. Yes, paying 100 US$ at once for an engine may sound much if you want to buy it, but if you see it through my eyes and over the last 5 years, the GG stuff is amazingly cheap. Ah, wait, I forgot to say I always bought the early adopter versions and saved some money so (except TGE).
Personally I wonder how these guys at GG survived over the years with so less money they want from us. Even my wife told me that this is by far the cheapest "hobby" I ever had. Could life be any better as having an absolution from my wife to buy GG products? Life is great... :-)
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#19
I must agree with Tom. Are we talking about the real indie business? Or hobby/school indies? GG is a business and made it's mission to help other indie businesses to reach their goals. Or if you want to put it in other words, to help people make their dream of becoming a successfull indie (business) come true. Now in that regard, you have to view GG's activities as business. First off, a business needs to make money. GG has grown in the past few years and now employs a lot of talent that are working each and every day to bring us the best tools they can to realize our indie dream. But they need to eat. Second, in the regard of the bussiness perspective, $250 for a complete game solution is a very low investment (apart from the fact that there is the non-source version, which is even cheaper (do you really need the source?)) considering the total cost of developing a game. And if your game will sell only reasonable well, you will have earned that money back in no-time.
Bottom-line: I think GG is a great partner for the serious indie developer. If you're serious about being an indie, please check "the whole package", and I'm sure you'll agree with me :)
09/01/2006 (4:41 am)
Hi Ben,I must agree with Tom. Are we talking about the real indie business? Or hobby/school indies? GG is a business and made it's mission to help other indie businesses to reach their goals. Or if you want to put it in other words, to help people make their dream of becoming a successfull indie (business) come true. Now in that regard, you have to view GG's activities as business. First off, a business needs to make money. GG has grown in the past few years and now employs a lot of talent that are working each and every day to bring us the best tools they can to realize our indie dream. But they need to eat. Second, in the regard of the bussiness perspective, $250 for a complete game solution is a very low investment (apart from the fact that there is the non-source version, which is even cheaper (do you really need the source?)) considering the total cost of developing a game. And if your game will sell only reasonable well, you will have earned that money back in no-time.
Bottom-line: I think GG is a great partner for the serious indie developer. If you're serious about being an indie, please check "the whole package", and I'm sure you'll agree with me :)
#20
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To me this all seems to me like GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over, group by group.
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I think he's referring to the first group being TSE without OpenGL (which alienates mac and linux) and the second group being cheapskates. I can also see a third abused group, but I'll keep my mouth shut.
Grant it $250 is a bit nuts for TGB (but then I've never even tried the demo, so maybe there's more to it than screenshots can tell), but w/e, ALMOST always have the freedom of choosing what not to buy in any market.
EDIT: I should probably clarify that TGB is the only place I disagree with any of the prices. TSE is worth the money even without OpenGL and Torque X is worth just as much (well worth nothing to me, xbox360 = unneeded piece of poo, though if the chance came to publish on xbox arcade or w/e it's called, I'd take it)
09/01/2006 (6:05 am)
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To me this all seems to me like GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over, group by group.
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I think he's referring to the first group being TSE without OpenGL (which alienates mac and linux) and the second group being cheapskates. I can also see a third abused group, but I'll keep my mouth shut.
Grant it $250 is a bit nuts for TGB (but then I've never even tried the demo, so maybe there's more to it than screenshots can tell), but w/e, ALMOST always have the freedom of choosing what not to buy in any market.
EDIT: I should probably clarify that TGB is the only place I disagree with any of the prices. TSE is worth the money even without OpenGL and Torque X is worth just as much (well worth nothing to me, xbox360 = unneeded piece of poo, though if the chance came to publish on xbox arcade or w/e it's called, I'd take it)
Torque 3D Owner Dark Tengu