Piracy in the Indie Community
by Jacob Dankovchik · 07/31/2010 (5:49 am) · 76 comments
With piracy being such a mainstream issue now involving all forms of media I took a moment to think about how this may affect people like us small-time indie guys.
My catalyst for this line of thought came from me thinking about how to distribute my Torque 3D Environment Pack. I'm not much for developing websites, truth of the matter is I don't know a damn thing about it, so I don't feel like making a complex system of extra security and user accounts, I simply don't have the time to learn all of that with college on the side as well. Eventually I came up with a way to do it that will be easy enough, but definitely not secure. I figure just make a password protected download page. Someone makes a purchase, they receive an email with the download link and password. Nice and simple.
However as you can guess, this leaves things open to piracy, if people should be so inclined. All someone has to do is hand out the link and password to other people and anyone could download my work for nothing. Which of course led me wonder about the impact piracy may have on our entire community.
There's of course no need to be so naive as to think none of us here have ever done some level of piracy. A lot of times it's justified in the sense that major companies really won't lose much through some small-time piracy. Download a movie or some songs? The people who worked on that are still going to be millionaires with more money than they know what to do with. But what about the indie game scene like us here?
Obviously starting from the top source, Torque itself, a quick piratebay search shows 3 torrents. One that doesn't have a version, a TGE 1.5, and a T3D 1.0.1. So clearly Torque itself isn't safe from pirates which means we have to have a few right here in this community itself. (especially considering there's a significant amount of people seeding the torrent)
So, what about stepping it down a bit to something more specific? Well, as I was writing the previous paragraph I had the thought to search for Marble Blast and sure enough, a Marble Blast Gold torrent. Also multiple torrents come up for various model and art packs, no immediate way to tell if some did or did not come from this very site. So while obviously there's no doubt people here who occasionally pirate some form of media from some major company, there also those around here who actually are providing some of the stuff here to BE pirated.
This all concerns me so much because soon I'll be apart of that which may be pirated off of. When people pirate software or other media they justify it in that the other person really doesn't NEED it however for some of us here this is very far from the truth. I use for example my own situation. Last November I was discharged from the military 3 years early for a shoulder injury. I had two large surgeries and more physical therapy than I ever want to think of in an attempt to fix it and in the end it wasn't enough and I was kicked out way soon than was planned, also leaving me with a right arm that is virtually useless for any real physical work. Last time I tried, I was able to do an entire 1 pushup before it gave out. So I get removed for a steady source of income, thrust into the outside world during difficult economic times, greatly limited in what I can do. Obviously my only practical option was to go to college, military helps pay for it and I'm going to need the degree. Still doesn't fix the fact though that money isn't exactly easy for me to come by due to my injury and that I was thrust out of my previous job sooner than expected.
With this environment pack I'm working on, I'm hoping to come up with a few extra bucks. Nothing super special, but every dime helps, you know? I'm working on a degree in game design, one of my favorite things to do, next to engineering. However with my shoulder the way it is, things with engineering usually are just painful anyhow as soon as physical work comes into play, so... game design is the safer path. So I figure make a few dollars doing something I love while tryin to make things work everywhere else in my life.
So, that there is the rundown of my story here and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a story like this to tell. Maybe not those exact ways but I'm sure there are others here just like me hoping to use this stuff as an outlet for their practice and love for the art while getting a small amount of compensation.
I'm sure we have pirates here, some people reading this may be the very ones guilty. People that, given the chance, will take any game, movie, or artwork for free and pass it on to others. If anyone like that IS reading this, think about mine and everyone else's situations first...
Download the DVD rip of Avatar, James Cameron will still be able to afford the 10 brand new sports cars for his mid-way birthday. But steal the work of people like myself or others here and you actually ARE taking food out of someone's mouth.
I don't support piracy but in the full corporate world, it has minimal impact. In the indie world though, it is the death of all that we work for. Don't do it. :(
My catalyst for this line of thought came from me thinking about how to distribute my Torque 3D Environment Pack. I'm not much for developing websites, truth of the matter is I don't know a damn thing about it, so I don't feel like making a complex system of extra security and user accounts, I simply don't have the time to learn all of that with college on the side as well. Eventually I came up with a way to do it that will be easy enough, but definitely not secure. I figure just make a password protected download page. Someone makes a purchase, they receive an email with the download link and password. Nice and simple.
However as you can guess, this leaves things open to piracy, if people should be so inclined. All someone has to do is hand out the link and password to other people and anyone could download my work for nothing. Which of course led me wonder about the impact piracy may have on our entire community.
There's of course no need to be so naive as to think none of us here have ever done some level of piracy. A lot of times it's justified in the sense that major companies really won't lose much through some small-time piracy. Download a movie or some songs? The people who worked on that are still going to be millionaires with more money than they know what to do with. But what about the indie game scene like us here?
Obviously starting from the top source, Torque itself, a quick piratebay search shows 3 torrents. One that doesn't have a version, a TGE 1.5, and a T3D 1.0.1. So clearly Torque itself isn't safe from pirates which means we have to have a few right here in this community itself. (especially considering there's a significant amount of people seeding the torrent)
So, what about stepping it down a bit to something more specific? Well, as I was writing the previous paragraph I had the thought to search for Marble Blast and sure enough, a Marble Blast Gold torrent. Also multiple torrents come up for various model and art packs, no immediate way to tell if some did or did not come from this very site. So while obviously there's no doubt people here who occasionally pirate some form of media from some major company, there also those around here who actually are providing some of the stuff here to BE pirated.
This all concerns me so much because soon I'll be apart of that which may be pirated off of. When people pirate software or other media they justify it in that the other person really doesn't NEED it however for some of us here this is very far from the truth. I use for example my own situation. Last November I was discharged from the military 3 years early for a shoulder injury. I had two large surgeries and more physical therapy than I ever want to think of in an attempt to fix it and in the end it wasn't enough and I was kicked out way soon than was planned, also leaving me with a right arm that is virtually useless for any real physical work. Last time I tried, I was able to do an entire 1 pushup before it gave out. So I get removed for a steady source of income, thrust into the outside world during difficult economic times, greatly limited in what I can do. Obviously my only practical option was to go to college, military helps pay for it and I'm going to need the degree. Still doesn't fix the fact though that money isn't exactly easy for me to come by due to my injury and that I was thrust out of my previous job sooner than expected.
With this environment pack I'm working on, I'm hoping to come up with a few extra bucks. Nothing super special, but every dime helps, you know? I'm working on a degree in game design, one of my favorite things to do, next to engineering. However with my shoulder the way it is, things with engineering usually are just painful anyhow as soon as physical work comes into play, so... game design is the safer path. So I figure make a few dollars doing something I love while tryin to make things work everywhere else in my life.
So, that there is the rundown of my story here and I'm sure I'm not the only one who has a story like this to tell. Maybe not those exact ways but I'm sure there are others here just like me hoping to use this stuff as an outlet for their practice and love for the art while getting a small amount of compensation.
I'm sure we have pirates here, some people reading this may be the very ones guilty. People that, given the chance, will take any game, movie, or artwork for free and pass it on to others. If anyone like that IS reading this, think about mine and everyone else's situations first...
Download the DVD rip of Avatar, James Cameron will still be able to afford the 10 brand new sports cars for his mid-way birthday. But steal the work of people like myself or others here and you actually ARE taking food out of someone's mouth.
I don't support piracy but in the full corporate world, it has minimal impact. In the indie world though, it is the death of all that we work for. Don't do it. :(
#2
As for the piracy thing, it's really a cultural issue that spans across almost all cultures: How much value does one place on digital products? Stealing someone's car is looked upon much more seriously than stealing someone's software, and while the software is in some cases worth more than the car, the fact that it's not physical probably plays a big role in that (because the people who torrent movies, music, and software usually don't go out and look for physical objects to steal, though vice-versa, it's much easier a chasm to jump).
Education and enforcement are the only two things that can be done. People need to know what the laws are (for all of those who otherwise think it's okay to download stuff for erroneous garbage they hear like the "24 hour rule", "fair use", and all the other BS). And they need to learn the impact not just on the people who work in the companies, but also on the economy: If I put out a game and only 50% of it is bought, then I need to raise the price of the game in order to survive and pay my people. That means that the population at large is making up for these thefts, financially speaking. Movies cost more, so ticket price hikes come a bit faster. DVD prices fall slower. Game prices fall slower as well.
Enforcement needs to be done as well- though I don't hold out much hope for that when more and more pirates take shelter in places like Asia, where copyright and trademark enforcement is notoriously weak...
07/31/2010 (1:41 pm)
Sorry to hear about your shoulder. I blew mine out about 60 days before leaving the Marines- the capsule never got repaired ("unless you're going into the NFL, you don't need it", ugh), and even 13 years later it's way more sensitive to physical labor than my right shoulder. Yours sounds even more serious, and I hope you get the surgeries you need and get that thing back into shape (beat the VA over the head if you have to, if you have any disability benefits).As for the piracy thing, it's really a cultural issue that spans across almost all cultures: How much value does one place on digital products? Stealing someone's car is looked upon much more seriously than stealing someone's software, and while the software is in some cases worth more than the car, the fact that it's not physical probably plays a big role in that (because the people who torrent movies, music, and software usually don't go out and look for physical objects to steal, though vice-versa, it's much easier a chasm to jump).
Education and enforcement are the only two things that can be done. People need to know what the laws are (for all of those who otherwise think it's okay to download stuff for erroneous garbage they hear like the "24 hour rule", "fair use", and all the other BS). And they need to learn the impact not just on the people who work in the companies, but also on the economy: If I put out a game and only 50% of it is bought, then I need to raise the price of the game in order to survive and pay my people. That means that the population at large is making up for these thefts, financially speaking. Movies cost more, so ticket price hikes come a bit faster. DVD prices fall slower. Game prices fall slower as well.
Enforcement needs to be done as well- though I don't hold out much hope for that when more and more pirates take shelter in places like Asia, where copyright and trademark enforcement is notoriously weak...
#3
Sure James Cameron is wealthy, but the guy that holds the boom mic day in and day out or that guy who builds the set is just a normal guy. Working for a paycheck just like you and me. His SOURCE of income is James Cameron's work and profit. Corporations are not single beings they are a group of people working for a goal.
Look at the music industry for example; Yeah the artists get the press but that same cash you put down to buy that CD probably helped pay the guy that sat at a machine in some unnamed factory who pressed out the plastic disk. Or that person that runs the CD wrapping machine. I am willing to bet that guy is worried about whether or not he/she will have a enough work to pay his/her bills every week too.
They are a part of "Big Corporations" too. Don't be so quick to endorse stealing on any level. Eventually, it will effect someone that really does "need the money". Just something to think about, good luck!
07/31/2010 (3:05 pm)
So wait a minute here. I read this post and honestly, being an active duty soldier, I understand exactly where you are coming from but, dude... You said QUOTE "I don't support piracy but in the full corporate world, it has minimal impact. In the indie world though, it is the death of all that we work for." Seems to me that in the full corporate world, there are probably a HUGE number of people that are affected that you did not even think about. Sure James Cameron is wealthy, but the guy that holds the boom mic day in and day out or that guy who builds the set is just a normal guy. Working for a paycheck just like you and me. His SOURCE of income is James Cameron's work and profit. Corporations are not single beings they are a group of people working for a goal.
Look at the music industry for example; Yeah the artists get the press but that same cash you put down to buy that CD probably helped pay the guy that sat at a machine in some unnamed factory who pressed out the plastic disk. Or that person that runs the CD wrapping machine. I am willing to bet that guy is worried about whether or not he/she will have a enough work to pay his/her bills every week too.
They are a part of "Big Corporations" too. Don't be so quick to endorse stealing on any level. Eventually, it will effect someone that really does "need the money". Just something to think about, good luck!
#4
07/31/2010 (3:21 pm)
Moral relativism for the win! 
#5
anyhow, apart from the military, medical, mishap love-in ... ;)
For content packs and the sort I wouldn't consider piracy to be a major issue for the following reasons:
1. To do anything "worthwhile" (eg commercial) they'd have to license it anyhow and thus buy legit. I guess law-of-averages suggests that they'll always be someone who transgresses this though ... at least until it's legal to just go round to someone's house and kill their ducks ...
2. If it's "just some kids screwing around on YouTube or some forums" they'd more included to steal something from a 3A game anyhow, it's not like most of their packaging of assets is secure anyhow ...
I guess just "defend your corner" - but I also guess that that is a damn sight harder to say than actually do. The fact is people pirate stuff because no-one is going to do anything about it, and you can't educate someone who's favourite word is "derp".
As for a download link ... couldn't you make a temporary one that only last a short time? (rather like the product downloads work here)
Or possibly look into how established sites work (google shop for example) - though I've no idea of the costs behind such things.
Maybe I'm being utterly niave - but I still reckon that most people who buy Indy do buy it, because it's not mainstream and you have to put effort in to find it in the first place - and thus, you probably don't think that "derp" is a verb ...
[edited] - for a joke/quote on Moral Relativism
07/31/2010 (3:34 pm)
Lower left arm/scaphoid region ... hurts when it's damp, or doing pressups (have to do something to keep those shoulder muscles in shape - leaning over this keyboard for all hours godsends ain't helpful!), never did get the tension back fully, probably thanks to my "no heavy lifting" chit being billigerently ignored back in '92. But hardly a major lifestyle inhibiter. anyhow, apart from the military, medical, mishap love-in ... ;)
For content packs and the sort I wouldn't consider piracy to be a major issue for the following reasons:
1. To do anything "worthwhile" (eg commercial) they'd have to license it anyhow and thus buy legit. I guess law-of-averages suggests that they'll always be someone who transgresses this though ... at least until it's legal to just go round to someone's house and kill their ducks ...
2. If it's "just some kids screwing around on YouTube or some forums" they'd more included to steal something from a 3A game anyhow, it's not like most of their packaging of assets is secure anyhow ...
I guess just "defend your corner" - but I also guess that that is a damn sight harder to say than actually do. The fact is people pirate stuff because no-one is going to do anything about it, and you can't educate someone who's favourite word is "derp".
As for a download link ... couldn't you make a temporary one that only last a short time? (rather like the product downloads work here)
Or possibly look into how established sites work (google shop for example) - though I've no idea of the costs behind such things.
Maybe I'm being utterly niave - but I still reckon that most people who buy Indy do buy it, because it's not mainstream and you have to put effort in to find it in the first place - and thus, you probably don't think that "derp" is a verb ...
[edited] - for a joke/quote on Moral Relativism
Quote:
U-Boats are those dastardly villains who sink our ships, while submarines are those gallant and noble craft which sink theirs.
Winston Churchill
#6
07/31/2010 (3:45 pm)
Lime wire,Utorrent, ect. should be forced to close its doors, considering it is really stealing no matter which way you look at it. You buy a DVD,Video Game, Program, why do you need someone to give you an illegal program. Metallica fought against this for the music industry but it still remains. If the game Industry, Music Industry, and Movie Industry stood up and took Lime wire,Utorrent, ect. to court we might get somewhere. There for prices would lower and it would create more jobs and careers. Stealing is stealing and companies that indulge in it should be forces to close (Lime wire,Utorrent).
#7
Whoa, back up.. I wrote this all rather late and night and was sleepy so I was worried some of my wording might be a bit unclear, looks like this is a case.
I'm not supporting piracy on any level at all, I'm not endorsing any of it. What I meant by that was a matter of scale. While I know that if you get enough people to pirate something from any major mainstream source that every level of development will be affected, that's a different talk for a different place. It would get painfully difficult to really break down how piracy affects mainstream production, could be a study that could go on forever, and in the end is well beyond the scope of what I'm discussing here.
Now, you look at the mainstream world and someone pirates a movie. That one person is less than a drop in the pond, they won't have an impact on profits on the full scale, it takes a ton of people to do it.
Then consider the indie scene. That one person actually DOES make up a significant portion of the sales and that one incident of piracy will have a strong impact, doesn't take tons of people.
And of course I know tons of people will pirate mainstream media too, but this isn't a discussion for the whole world, just the indie community. Of course there are plenty of pirates here, I'm sure there are tons that we all don't even think about.
Should they pirate a mainstream product, they won't be crippling any income, it takes the help from the rest of the world to do that. Should they pirate within this much smaller community though and they will be. That was my meaning behind that statement, by NO means was I endorsing piracy on any level. Just that what level you perform it on does actually make a difference. Doesn't make either one right but for the indie piracy it doesn't take the rest of the world to help out.
07/31/2010 (4:01 pm)
Quote:They are a part of "Big Corporations" too. Don't be so quick to endorse stealing on any level. Eventually, it will effect someone that really does "need the money". Just something to think about, good luck!
Whoa, back up.. I wrote this all rather late and night and was sleepy so I was worried some of my wording might be a bit unclear, looks like this is a case.
I'm not supporting piracy on any level at all, I'm not endorsing any of it. What I meant by that was a matter of scale. While I know that if you get enough people to pirate something from any major mainstream source that every level of development will be affected, that's a different talk for a different place. It would get painfully difficult to really break down how piracy affects mainstream production, could be a study that could go on forever, and in the end is well beyond the scope of what I'm discussing here.
Now, you look at the mainstream world and someone pirates a movie. That one person is less than a drop in the pond, they won't have an impact on profits on the full scale, it takes a ton of people to do it.
Then consider the indie scene. That one person actually DOES make up a significant portion of the sales and that one incident of piracy will have a strong impact, doesn't take tons of people.
And of course I know tons of people will pirate mainstream media too, but this isn't a discussion for the whole world, just the indie community. Of course there are plenty of pirates here, I'm sure there are tons that we all don't even think about.
Should they pirate a mainstream product, they won't be crippling any income, it takes the help from the rest of the world to do that. Should they pirate within this much smaller community though and they will be. That was my meaning behind that statement, by NO means was I endorsing piracy on any level. Just that what level you perform it on does actually make a difference. Doesn't make either one right but for the indie piracy it doesn't take the rest of the world to help out.
#8
Self policing your own corner of the world is really all that you can do when it occurs. Actual preventing of software/content piracy is never going to happen -- even the mega-corporations cannot do so. You can spend time on keeping an eye on things or you can put more effort in providing greater value for legitimate customers.
The way I see it is that I've actually got something worthwhile if (even if just a few do so) it's being pirated.... and I better not ever catch them in a dark alleyway while my blades are sharp ;)
07/31/2010 (6:08 pm)
I was actually amused to find that my content pack had been pirated... A simple and polite request to remove the download link - on a Blogspot blog - was all it took to settle the issue. But did it really hurt me or my sales? No. It still sells -- I make money (some). We would like to think that such piracy hurts the little guy more than those with a higher profit margin but that's more of a relative quandary than an actual fact.Self policing your own corner of the world is really all that you can do when it occurs. Actual preventing of software/content piracy is never going to happen -- even the mega-corporations cannot do so. You can spend time on keeping an eye on things or you can put more effort in providing greater value for legitimate customers.
The way I see it is that I've actually got something worthwhile if (even if just a few do so) it's being pirated.... and I better not ever catch them in a dark alleyway while my blades are sharp ;)
#9
PS: Can't wait to see your pack when its done, Ive been following its progress. I can't wait until Ive made enough progress on mine to even Blog about its coming:O)
07/31/2010 (7:54 pm)
I would have to agree with some others here, unless they have a real licence there isnt much they can do except make private games, and stuff that only they could use, so I suppose they could learn something, but that's about it. I wouldn't really worry about it too much with your kit, not that someone wouldn't put it on a torrent site, but your not loosing money on there pirate unless they are making money off you product, or their efforts somehow make someone else money, and I hope that there isnt people that think they can actually use what they download off those sites. I have heard from some people at this very site saying how they loose so much to pirates but I have really yet to see it, those pirates wouldn't have bought the product anyway so they are not part of your target market. Also if you see more Torque products that are on those site, please send me an email with the names of them, and the sites they are on. I spend a LOT of time rending requests to take them down, and they are supposed to do it, but some have ignored me. Really I wouldn't worry too much :O)PS: Can't wait to see your pack when its done, Ive been following its progress. I can't wait until Ive made enough progress on mine to even Blog about its coming:O)
#10
There are many fair reasons to "pirate" works that aren't taken into account because so many simply assume that one is trying to get stuff for free. In fact, I don't like the term pirate. I think infringement or unauthorized distribution/copying is more accurate. People download copies of protected works for reasons that are perfectly legitimate. Backups of lost or destroyed discs, getting around DRM that makes the game unplayable, and trying a game before investing non-refundable money could be considered entirely fair reasons to "pirate" games.
Christian S. said,
"Stealing is stealing, no mater if its from MS, TP or indies."
I have to disagree with you. Stealing is nothing like what people do on the internet today. What it is in reality is a violation of an author's rights to control a work that has been published. Stealing is a term that is tied directly to physical property and works that don't physically exist are not property. A painting is property. A statue is property, but information that is just representative of an idea is not property and deserves no such protection as far the law is concerned. Trying to apply physical property concepts to something that literally doesn't exist and is infinitely reproducible is folly.
Like many others, I have come to realize that the things we produce is, by the laws of economics, without monetary value. That's not to say it's worthless, but based on the laws of supply and demand, the supply being infinite and the demand falling until it reaches a price of zero, it is made so. What this means is that we can't go on pretending that IP is real property and expect our customers to treat it as such if we wish to be successful.
What we offer is an abundant good and abundant goods in themselves are not worth anything economically, but this isn't a bad thing. We can use this abundant good to connect to people so we can sell them something that isn't abundant. We have to experiment with what it is that they will pay for when they play our games and the first of us to figure that out will be successful. This video explains what I'm referring to: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuxMJ8lnYA4
What the industry has been doing, is locking down "imaginary property", or IP as I call it, to physical media in order to imbue it with the scarcity of physical property. The internet has destroyed this model and actually makes it possible for more people than ever before to get access to these works. In turn, this gives us creators greater access to new customers that physical media never could provide. P2P is our golden goose to distribution and independence from the publishers that tend to take the majority cut.
07/31/2010 (8:42 pm)
I realized a while ago it's thinking like I see here in this thread that makes dealing with piracy so difficult (no offense intended). Actually, I think what most of whom that download do is not "piracy" because that infers that one takes something and uses it to profit from it. The majority of those that download works are not intent on profiting from the resale of "stolen property". What they are doing is infringing on the copyrights of those that created said works. Even then, this should not be looked upon as "one download is equal to one lost sale", because you can't possibly know what the purpose of that download is. There are many fair reasons to "pirate" works that aren't taken into account because so many simply assume that one is trying to get stuff for free. In fact, I don't like the term pirate. I think infringement or unauthorized distribution/copying is more accurate. People download copies of protected works for reasons that are perfectly legitimate. Backups of lost or destroyed discs, getting around DRM that makes the game unplayable, and trying a game before investing non-refundable money could be considered entirely fair reasons to "pirate" games.
Christian S. said,
"Stealing is stealing, no mater if its from MS, TP or indies."
I have to disagree with you. Stealing is nothing like what people do on the internet today. What it is in reality is a violation of an author's rights to control a work that has been published. Stealing is a term that is tied directly to physical property and works that don't physically exist are not property. A painting is property. A statue is property, but information that is just representative of an idea is not property and deserves no such protection as far the law is concerned. Trying to apply physical property concepts to something that literally doesn't exist and is infinitely reproducible is folly.
Like many others, I have come to realize that the things we produce is, by the laws of economics, without monetary value. That's not to say it's worthless, but based on the laws of supply and demand, the supply being infinite and the demand falling until it reaches a price of zero, it is made so. What this means is that we can't go on pretending that IP is real property and expect our customers to treat it as such if we wish to be successful.
What we offer is an abundant good and abundant goods in themselves are not worth anything economically, but this isn't a bad thing. We can use this abundant good to connect to people so we can sell them something that isn't abundant. We have to experiment with what it is that they will pay for when they play our games and the first of us to figure that out will be successful. This video explains what I'm referring to: www.youtube.com/watch?v=VuxMJ8lnYA4
What the industry has been doing, is locking down "imaginary property", or IP as I call it, to physical media in order to imbue it with the scarcity of physical property. The internet has destroyed this model and actually makes it possible for more people than ever before to get access to these works. In turn, this gives us creators greater access to new customers that physical media never could provide. P2P is our golden goose to distribution and independence from the publishers that tend to take the majority cut.
#11
Feel free to bend my words in every way you like, If I produce something, be that digital or not, and you obtain it in ways I have not approved -you are stealing.
But if wording it otherwise makes thiefs sleep better at night, we should keep reminding them they are naught but such ones...
07/31/2010 (9:17 pm)
@ Dustin M.Feel free to bend my words in every way you like, If I produce something, be that digital or not, and you obtain it in ways I have not approved -you are stealing.
But if wording it otherwise makes thiefs sleep better at night, we should keep reminding them they are naught but such ones...
#12
While I agree on principle that someone downloading media to recover something they already own seems OK to me, the format in which this content is distributed has been seriously abused and tainted, that is why those people are called leeches, ...a wonderful term "Leeching"
anyway....These games, or these pieces or art may seem like "IP" to you, but EVERYTHING is IP, we can't take it with us when we die, and the basic stuff it is made of of isn't anything that we owned in the first place, you can really own anything when you get right down to it. The computers that we have created, (just like canvas) is a place that we might paint out our Ideas, and like other ideas we have laws, like copyright laws, that protect these ideas so other wont be able to make profit off something I got to first before others. When you get to the idea first you get to control that idea, and the way it is used until you deem to pass it on to someone else, taking it by any-other means is a violation of the laws where you live, and is just plain wrong. If it wasn't wrong people wouldn't hide as they take it. They know they are doing something wrong when they do it, its why they hide their actions. we don't have to call it stealing to know it is wrong.
I also agree that P2P can be a great distribution, especially for us Indies, but I don't know if i would want to mix my product in with the trash, even if the garbage Man would deliver it for free, but that is just my opinion, and your opinion is also welcome, even if I fond it sort of skewed:O)
Bobby
PS Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft
Especially check out:
Section 3 "appropriation" which occurs when the defendant wrongfully asserts the rights of ownership over the property. This can be by physical taking, but it will also include many different situations (i.e. a failure to return or omission) in which a person may have lawfully come into possession of the property and then keeps or uses the property in an unauthorised way;
Section 4 "property" includes all personalty, i.e. land itself cannot be stolen but anything severed from the land (with the exception of wild flowers) can be stolen, as can intangible property such as a chose in action; however it seems that the term does not extend to all intangible property, as information (Oxford v. Moss) and trade secrets (R v. Absolom, The Times, 14 September 1983) have been held not to fall within the Section 4 definition of property.
If we want to talk about the laws of man:O)
07/31/2010 (10:12 pm)
@DustinWhile I agree on principle that someone downloading media to recover something they already own seems OK to me, the format in which this content is distributed has been seriously abused and tainted, that is why those people are called leeches, ...a wonderful term "Leeching"
anyway....These games, or these pieces or art may seem like "IP" to you, but EVERYTHING is IP, we can't take it with us when we die, and the basic stuff it is made of of isn't anything that we owned in the first place, you can really own anything when you get right down to it. The computers that we have created, (just like canvas) is a place that we might paint out our Ideas, and like other ideas we have laws, like copyright laws, that protect these ideas so other wont be able to make profit off something I got to first before others. When you get to the idea first you get to control that idea, and the way it is used until you deem to pass it on to someone else, taking it by any-other means is a violation of the laws where you live, and is just plain wrong. If it wasn't wrong people wouldn't hide as they take it. They know they are doing something wrong when they do it, its why they hide their actions. we don't have to call it stealing to know it is wrong.
I also agree that P2P can be a great distribution, especially for us Indies, but I don't know if i would want to mix my product in with the trash, even if the garbage Man would deliver it for free, but that is just my opinion, and your opinion is also welcome, even if I fond it sort of skewed:O)
Bobby
PS Check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theft
Especially check out:
Section 3 "appropriation" which occurs when the defendant wrongfully asserts the rights of ownership over the property. This can be by physical taking, but it will also include many different situations (i.e. a failure to return or omission) in which a person may have lawfully come into possession of the property and then keeps or uses the property in an unauthorised way;
Section 4 "property" includes all personalty, i.e. land itself cannot be stolen but anything severed from the land (with the exception of wild flowers) can be stolen, as can intangible property such as a chose in action; however it seems that the term does not extend to all intangible property, as information (Oxford v. Moss) and trade secrets (R v. Absolom, The Times, 14 September 1983) have been held not to fall within the Section 4 definition of property.
If we want to talk about the laws of man:O)
#13
No respectful game developer is using stolen tools or art to create a product they wish to generate income. If you keep record of your financial transactions, it is easier to target products that are attempting to profit from stolen content, and you have legal recourse to put a stop to it.
07/31/2010 (10:32 pm)
A thief should never be consider lost opportunity for generating a profit. Sure it is an increase of your product being used, but the theft alone is action by someone who would not consider spending the cash to be legitimate in the first place. No respectful game developer is using stolen tools or art to create a product they wish to generate income. If you keep record of your financial transactions, it is easier to target products that are attempting to profit from stolen content, and you have legal recourse to put a stop to it.
#14
Why are you so defensive? I'm merely pointing out that IP is not property as we would consider a car or a pair of shoes to be property. I'm not saying that you have no rights to what you create, only that those rights are that you can choose whom may appropriate that which you create and not that you "own" it. The wording of the copyright laws says that you are granted the right to a monopoly on the sale and distribution of protected works that you have authored. It doesn't say it belongs to you. If I take your work(s) without your permission, I have violated your copyright. I haven't stolen it. It is wrong, but it's not the same as stealing in the eyes of the law. That's why copyright cases are tried in civil court rather than criminal court.
07/31/2010 (10:49 pm)
@ChristianWhy are you so defensive? I'm merely pointing out that IP is not property as we would consider a car or a pair of shoes to be property. I'm not saying that you have no rights to what you create, only that those rights are that you can choose whom may appropriate that which you create and not that you "own" it. The wording of the copyright laws says that you are granted the right to a monopoly on the sale and distribution of protected works that you have authored. It doesn't say it belongs to you. If I take your work(s) without your permission, I have violated your copyright. I haven't stolen it. It is wrong, but it's not the same as stealing in the eyes of the law. That's why copyright cases are tried in civil court rather than criminal court.
#15
Jacob, all I was saying was keep the larger picture in mind. You are not the first person that I have heard your point of view from and I think everyone needs to be reminded that "Evil Corporations" have everyday average workers. Combine the corporate mindset with profit loss and you will NEVER see an executive VP lose his/her job, instead Jack or Jane production worker will lose theirs to make up for the loss. Is it fair? No. But it is business. I was not calling you out or anything so don't take my response personally. Trust me I have had MANY nights were I did not clarify what I meant to say. I did not think you were endorsing piracy from larger corporations, I just used your post to remind folks that it's always the little guy that gets left out when money is concerned.
08/01/2010 (12:46 am)
Dustin, intellectual property or not. Physical property or not. Either way, someone loses out. I personally consider a car or shoes or anything deemed 'physical' by your interpretation an equal match to any program I produce. Here is why: I PUT IN EFFORT AND WORK IN ORDER FOR IT TO EXIST. Just like the men/women on the assembly line that produce shoes or cars or any other physical property. Just because what I produce is easier to steal does not make it any less valuable. I am sure artists, writers, music industry people, and anyone else that produces something from nothing would agree. I am not being defensive and I understand your legal point however I respectfully disagree.Jacob, all I was saying was keep the larger picture in mind. You are not the first person that I have heard your point of view from and I think everyone needs to be reminded that "Evil Corporations" have everyday average workers. Combine the corporate mindset with profit loss and you will NEVER see an executive VP lose his/her job, instead Jack or Jane production worker will lose theirs to make up for the loss. Is it fair? No. But it is business. I was not calling you out or anything so don't take my response personally. Trust me I have had MANY nights were I did not clarify what I meant to say. I did not think you were endorsing piracy from larger corporations, I just used your post to remind folks that it's always the little guy that gets left out when money is concerned.
#16
I firmly believe that if they hadn't been available to snag there, the folks downloading from there wouldn't have busted down the door to my site or GG to purchase it. I lose absolutely no sleep over it. Quite frankly I don't consider it a lost customer, because they'd have never paid for it in the first place.
In fact it was one of the things my son and I joked about when we were first developing monsterpacks. We figured we would know that we'd finally made something of value when someone took the trouble to pirate it.
Make some reasonable effort on your purchasing system and customer distribution, keep active in the community and take a deep breath. I know as well as anyone you're stuff, like mine, will probably end up being posted or torrented or in some forum somewhere, but just remember, they wouldn't have parted with their cash even if it hadn't been there so as annoying (or flattering on occasion) it may be, you really didn't, more than likely, lose a customer.
08/01/2010 (1:28 am)
I believe Caylo hit the nail on the head. I've seen some of my content packs on Russian forums (secured member logins of course) but haven't given it a second thought. I firmly believe that if they hadn't been available to snag there, the folks downloading from there wouldn't have busted down the door to my site or GG to purchase it. I lose absolutely no sleep over it. Quite frankly I don't consider it a lost customer, because they'd have never paid for it in the first place.
In fact it was one of the things my son and I joked about when we were first developing monsterpacks. We figured we would know that we'd finally made something of value when someone took the trouble to pirate it.
Make some reasonable effort on your purchasing system and customer distribution, keep active in the community and take a deep breath. I know as well as anyone you're stuff, like mine, will probably end up being posted or torrented or in some forum somewhere, but just remember, they wouldn't have parted with their cash even if it hadn't been there so as annoying (or flattering on occasion) it may be, you really didn't, more than likely, lose a customer.
#17
I understand how you feel about what you create. You highly value that which you put countless hours of work into. Unfortunately, the market doesn't see it that way. I say this, not because I think the people that produce it aren't due any compensation, but because creative works are not like physical property. It's the nature of the beast. I know you won't agree, but the fact is that it's not stealing because you never really owned it in the first place. If you want to own an idea, you can never divulge it to anyone else because once you do, it is out of your control.
Let's say for instance that you climb onto your roof with a feather pillow and a knife on a windy day. You slash open the pillow and scatter the feathers to the wind. Now, try to recollect the feathers. You can't, because when you "released" the feathers you gave up control of where it goes. This is how publishing your work goes too. Once you release it, you give up control of your creation as soon as it hits the market. Copyright tries to mitigate this by giving you the right to pursue those that copy your works without your permission.
What I'm trying to say here is that selling something as abstract as a game to people like it's a car or a shoe is just not realistic anymore. It's not easier to steal suddenly, it's just a flawed business model that no longer works. Why do you think newspapers are dying? Ideas tied to physical objects are obsolete and we all need to figure out a new way to profit from what we create.
If you don't believe that what I'm saying makes any sense, then maybe you should hear what a published writer has to say about piracy:
jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/05/piracy-again.html
If anything I have said comes off to you as combative, please don't take offense. I'm as concerned about this as all of you are. I just don't think fighting piracy is worth it. I'm hoping that if people change their minds about how they see creative works, that maybe we can turn file sharing into a vehicle for success.
08/01/2010 (2:50 am)
@Ron KapaunI understand how you feel about what you create. You highly value that which you put countless hours of work into. Unfortunately, the market doesn't see it that way. I say this, not because I think the people that produce it aren't due any compensation, but because creative works are not like physical property. It's the nature of the beast. I know you won't agree, but the fact is that it's not stealing because you never really owned it in the first place. If you want to own an idea, you can never divulge it to anyone else because once you do, it is out of your control.
Let's say for instance that you climb onto your roof with a feather pillow and a knife on a windy day. You slash open the pillow and scatter the feathers to the wind. Now, try to recollect the feathers. You can't, because when you "released" the feathers you gave up control of where it goes. This is how publishing your work goes too. Once you release it, you give up control of your creation as soon as it hits the market. Copyright tries to mitigate this by giving you the right to pursue those that copy your works without your permission.
What I'm trying to say here is that selling something as abstract as a game to people like it's a car or a shoe is just not realistic anymore. It's not easier to steal suddenly, it's just a flawed business model that no longer works. Why do you think newspapers are dying? Ideas tied to physical objects are obsolete and we all need to figure out a new way to profit from what we create.
If you don't believe that what I'm saying makes any sense, then maybe you should hear what a published writer has to say about piracy:
jakonrath.blogspot.com/2010/05/piracy-again.html
If anything I have said comes off to you as combative, please don't take offense. I'm as concerned about this as all of you are. I just don't think fighting piracy is worth it. I'm hoping that if people change their minds about how they see creative works, that maybe we can turn file sharing into a vehicle for success.
#18
This blog post seem to have brought out some very deep thinking from the TorquePowered community. Its alway refreshing to experience such well worded and expressed opinions on a topic of this magnitude.
08/01/2010 (5:53 am)
Insightful thoughts from that link Dustin, thanks for sharing it. This blog post seem to have brought out some very deep thinking from the TorquePowered community. Its alway refreshing to experience such well worded and expressed opinions on a topic of this magnitude.
#19
I don't care if people pirate my work. I create games because I want people to play them. I mostly give them away for free. I have charged for an iPhone app, and I'm currently making an iPad app for which I will charge, but if people pirate these I don't care. I expect them to pirate them. I don't base my income on the assumption that everyone will pay for my content - that would be naive. I make sure I have alternate income streams (such as teaching and freelance work) so that piracy won't hurt me.
08/01/2010 (11:15 am)
If you are concerned about losing your profits to pirates then do not create digital content. Digital content, by its very nature is easy to copy. So if you want to make something that people won't pirate, make physical objects.I don't care if people pirate my work. I create games because I want people to play them. I mostly give them away for free. I have charged for an iPhone app, and I'm currently making an iPad app for which I will charge, but if people pirate these I don't care. I expect them to pirate them. I don't base my income on the assumption that everyone will pay for my content - that would be naive. I make sure I have alternate income streams (such as teaching and freelance work) so that piracy won't hurt me.
#20
Well, I disagree here. While it is true that once an exe is compiled, its supply becomes nearly infinite- but what about time?
The reason why spoons cost money are because people mine the ore, make casts, make the machines, maintain them, and then man assembly lines as the machines stamp out spoons. With all that tech, the price of the spoon has fallen, causing many people to not have to make their own. But the element that is common in both that and video games is time. You need to spend time to get the ore, make machines, maintain them, and man that factory. And time needs to be compensated for.
When a video game is made, the time spent of the people involved also needs to be compensated for. Artists, programmers, producers, the HR people, etc., all need to be paid for their time.
And it isn't just any time that can be used. Some artists are better than others, or else you need to use more time to create the work, or the work may not even be able to be created at all, even given more time. It's called skill. Some people just aren't as good as others- I know that my artists do stuff I simply can't, no matter how much time I throw at it.
So skill helps lower the amount of time you put into something, which lowers the cost of that thing you make. It's the same way that machines lower the cost of goods, by lowering the time required to create an object at a certain level of skill. Tools and add-on packs allow you to lower costs by automating certain creation time at certain skill levels. It's all about time.
So when you get right down to it, the value of something has nothing to do with whether or not it is a physical object that takes X amount of time to copy, but is tied to the amount of time spent to create it. For physical objects, they need to be created over and over, hence the need for assembly lines to keep costs down. For digital objects, costs are kept low because of the ease of replication, but the time involved up-front is much higher because the object is always original.
I don't know why people ignore time in all these arguments, but that's the crux of the issue: Do you value the time that you or others spend?
08/01/2010 (4:58 pm)
Quote:Like many others, I have come to realize that the things we produce is, by the laws of economics, without monetary value. That's not to say it's worthless, but based on the laws of supply and demand, the supply being infinite and the demand falling until it reaches a price of zero, it is made so. What this means is that we can't go on pretending that IP is real property and expect our customers to treat it as such if we wish to be successful.
Well, I disagree here. While it is true that once an exe is compiled, its supply becomes nearly infinite- but what about time?
The reason why spoons cost money are because people mine the ore, make casts, make the machines, maintain them, and then man assembly lines as the machines stamp out spoons. With all that tech, the price of the spoon has fallen, causing many people to not have to make their own. But the element that is common in both that and video games is time. You need to spend time to get the ore, make machines, maintain them, and man that factory. And time needs to be compensated for.
When a video game is made, the time spent of the people involved also needs to be compensated for. Artists, programmers, producers, the HR people, etc., all need to be paid for their time.
And it isn't just any time that can be used. Some artists are better than others, or else you need to use more time to create the work, or the work may not even be able to be created at all, even given more time. It's called skill. Some people just aren't as good as others- I know that my artists do stuff I simply can't, no matter how much time I throw at it.
So skill helps lower the amount of time you put into something, which lowers the cost of that thing you make. It's the same way that machines lower the cost of goods, by lowering the time required to create an object at a certain level of skill. Tools and add-on packs allow you to lower costs by automating certain creation time at certain skill levels. It's all about time.
So when you get right down to it, the value of something has nothing to do with whether or not it is a physical object that takes X amount of time to copy, but is tied to the amount of time spent to create it. For physical objects, they need to be created over and over, hence the need for assembly lines to keep costs down. For digital objects, costs are kept low because of the ease of replication, but the time involved up-front is much higher because the object is always original.
I don't know why people ignore time in all these arguments, but that's the crux of the issue: Do you value the time that you or others spend?
Torque Owner Christian S
Oak-Entertainment
Those will generally;
A: loose the community respect.
B: lack any serious network to be of any competition to other indies.
C: have their project pursued/closed/purged/etc
D: recieve some nasty mails/letters
Anyways, good luck with your pack(s)