Torque's 2D and 3D Future Vol. 2
by Brett Seyler · 11/18/2008 (6:01 am) · 76 comments
Since my last post on this subject in March, our Torque engine developers have been quietly toiling away on some major new stuff. The major focus? TGEA. While we've also spent some serious cycles on Torque X (the impressive results of which you'll be seeing soon) and on TGB (which you'll probably start hearing about toward the end of the year), probably 80% of the energy has gone to TGEA, and it's definitely starting to bear fruit.
There are many of you out there who started with TGE and have yet to make the jump to TGEA. Some of you will be asking "why TGEA and not TGE?" That's going to be the main focus of this post. I'm going to talk about what you'll be seeing from TGEA in the coming weeks and months, and why you're not likely to see an update to TGE soon, or perhaps every again. Don't panic yet. Keep reading...
While there were good reasons OpenGL support did not make it in TGEA 1.0, it's here now with vastly better performance than ever possible before thanks to the new Brian Richardson and Alex Scarborough powered graphic layer (GFX2). You can see the early fruits of Alex's efforts porting Rokkitball and Legions to the Mac for InstantAction below.
Rokkitball and Fallen Empire: Legions running in Safari on OSX
Did we mention that TGEA 1.8 is a FREE update for all TGEA owners? You can grab the beta release by hitting your My Account page right now.
What About TGE?
We've kicked this idea around a lot here in the office and so have you in the forums and in the comments on my previous blog. Why aren't we working on TGE? There are a number of reasons that matter to us, but I really want to approach this from your perspective. I want to take a hard look at the reasons people have, in the past, chosen TGE over TGEA.
Reason #1: TGE has better documentation. While this was true when TGEA 1.0 originally launched back in February 2007, it's certainly not anymore. TGEA documentation has gotten the Mich Perry treatment. It's now probably the most well-documented engine out there with mountains of resouces and a well organized set of reference and learning materials. See the proof for yourselves.
Mich's docs blogs:
* What do you think about Documentation?
* MAJOR Documentation Announcement 1
* New Documentation System
* Documentation Announcements
* September Documentation Wrap Up
* October Documentation Wrap Up
Reason #2: TGE has better resources. More resources? Yes. Better resources? Not anymore. TGEA is where all the latest, coolest stuff is happening, and some Torque developers are defintiely taking it by the horns and doing some really cool stuff. There are also a bunch of great add-ons for TGEA and many many more in the works. Case in point: Konrad Kiss. His Cliff Construction Kit makes gorgeous, detailed environments much easier to do. There's also Lorne McIntosh's SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion), and Apparatus' Beautiful Doors.
Reason #3: TGE has better stability. This is also no longer true. While TGEA pre-1.7 didn't match TGE's stability, the 1.7 and 1.7.1 release did. It may take a while for TGEA to match TGE's stability on the Mac, but it will get there. On the PC, it's no longer an issue.
Reason #4: TGE can run on OSX with OpenGL. Now so can TGEA, only it runs the same projects faster.
So with TGEA we now have...
The first thing I want to say is this: I'm thrilled we got here. With TGEA 1.8, we're out of reasons to look back and we'll be looking to the future from here with continued improvements to TGEA. It was not without great effort. TGEA is now is a much better product for game developers than TGE. If you're part of the Torque community, TGEA is where all the new development will be happening. TGEA is where the majority of new resources and 3rd party products will be born. And the best part of this for TGE owners is, we've taken great care to make sure that TGE projects are very portable to TGEA.
I'm encouraging those that haven't made the move to consider it. Having all hands on the same codebase benefits our development internally, but it also has huge benefits you guys. It means you'll have more compatible resources, and you'll have better, faster, more accurate answers to your technical questions because everyone's looking the same code.
There are real, tangible advantages for your project as well. In addition to all the hallmark strengths of Torque like world class networking and real-time world editing, with TGEA you have...
To us, it's a clear choice. You'll notice that we've taken this new embrace of Torque's future to heart with some recent changes to the website too. If you're a new user looking for an engine and want to make a 3D game, you'll end up on the TGEA landing page in just one click.
Getting to TGE is a tad tougher, but of course it's still there.
At some point, TGE will likely either go away, or be licensed in a different way. We could do something like the id does with the older Quake engines offering both GPL and closed source. We could simply leave it on the site as a less expensive option. To be honest, we haven't decided and we won't be doing anything about it right away.
This is a decision that I really would like some community feedback on. I know many of you have been working with TGE for years and really love it. We don't want to do anything that discourages it's continued use, but for new and advanced users alike, TGEA is now a better product, so we want to put it out front where we can focus on making it even better.
If TGE is going away soon, doesn't the name "TGEA" seem a little dumb?
Yes =) We are some gigantic dunces at this whole "naming" and "marketing" thing, but I see no reason to live with our mistakes or repeat them in the future. At some point, we'll look to simplify our products down to basics. It could look something like:
TGEA --> Torque 3D
and
TGB --> Torque 2D (duh...didn't we do that once already?)
So, none of that is happening *right* now, but likely happen in the future.
Okay Cool. So What's Next?
First off, to quickly review the stuff I've covered so far...
* TGEA 1.8 is in beta and adds an OpenGL graphics implementation and runs on OSX.
* At some point TGEA will replace TGE entirely and may be renamed to something more...concise.
Alright, alright! What's next? Good question...
The next version of Torque for 3D games
If you're still looking for another reason to make the leap to TGEA, pay attention. Remember all that stuff mentioned in my last blog under R&D? Well, back in March, there were dozens of things I wasn't ready to mention and quite a few that we'll be able to confirm as part of our next Torque release. The GG Studios team and many 3rd party developers we work with are already hands on with some of the coolest new R&D tech around. While the game studio is proving this new tech out with games you'll see on InstantAction and consoles over the next year, we're merging it with TGEA to be included in our next release.
Finally, Some "Thank Yous"
Maintaining and improving Torque is an incredible amount of work, so I want to recognize some of the people who've been HUGELY helpful in this last round of development, and generally moving the Torque experience in a positive direction, either by generously providing community resources, contributing directly to development, or providing really nice add-ons that help make Torque shine.
1. The entire Sickhead Games crew (Tom Spilman, Russell Fincher, Ross Pawley, and James Ford). These guys are to thank for a ton of what goes on behind the scenes in Torque development and even more of what you're about to see in the future. Their products, Torsion especially, make Torque much easier and much more fun to work with. They are a truly independent studio and they're bound for success.
2. John Kabus. John's continued support for the entire Torque product lineup has been a huge value add. He's been working on a lot of cool stuff that you guys will be psyched to see in the future too, so John definitely deserves a big thanks.
3. John Kanalakis. Remember when I mentioned that you'd be seeing some really new and impressive Torque X stuff? You have John to thank. John spearheaded our last round of development on Torque X both by updating it to XNA Game Studio 3.0 and he added his own suite of 3D editing tools. Now you can use WYSIWG tools to design your scene, assign components, and even write new ones right inside the editor. It's hot stuff and it's not been easy, so thank you, John. You're a superhero.
4. Melv May and Phillip O'Shea. Melv and Phillip are currently hard at work on some super-top-secret 2D engine stuff. When the next version of Torque's 2D engine tech ships, you'll have them to thank for most of its coolness.
5. Jeff Faust. Jeff never stops improving his fabulous AFX technology. He recently updated it to include TGEA support and more awesome effects. Word has it he's planning a big release in the next few months that will impress us all. I have no doubts about that. Keep it up, Jeff!
6. Rene Damm. Rene's another guy who's been absolutely killer behind the scenes helping with TGEA. He's tackled Atlas Terrain issues that frighten the best of us and his current plans include some really cool ways to leverage that core tech. We're all really looking forward to seeing what will happen when the final stuff emerges.
7. Laurentiu Danila a.k.a. "Apparatus". Does this guy ever sleep? Doors, bridges, props, textures, environments...KABOOM!. Talk about making Torque shine! Great job, Apparatus. Can't wait to see what you do next.
AND THAT'S A WRAP!
If you made it this far in the longest blog ever, congrats! I hope it was worth reading. Thanks!
...................................................................................................
Another Pre-emptive Q&A (with myself)
Q. What? No more TGE?
A. TGE is not gone yet and it's not going to disappear tomorrow, next week, or even next month. Next year? Possibly. There are no longer any technical reasons to choose TGE over TGEA, so we're going to focus our development efforts there. If you're concerned about the price, I wouldn't worry. We're going to find a way to make Torque technology as accessible on a budget as it can be. TGE resources and documentation aren't going to disappear either. They'll always be available, they may just become less relevant.
Q. Which of these releases will GG charge for?
A. TGEA 1.8 will be a free update. The next version of our 3D tech after that will be a paid update. The next version of our 2D tech will probably be a paid update. It's been almost 2 years since we charged for any version of TGEA and almost 4 years since we charge for any version of TGB. That's a pretty generous track record. At some point, we're going to have to feed the developers but as always, if we do charge for an update, you'll get more *way* more than your money's worth.
Q. When will we see OpenGL support in TGEA?
A. In TGEA 1.8! It's in open beta now! Pull it down. Put the hammer to it. Let us know what needs fixing.
There are many of you out there who started with TGE and have yet to make the jump to TGEA. Some of you will be asking "why TGEA and not TGE?" That's going to be the main focus of this post. I'm going to talk about what you'll be seeing from TGEA in the coming weeks and months, and why you're not likely to see an update to TGE soon, or perhaps every again. Don't panic yet. Keep reading...
While there were good reasons OpenGL support did not make it in TGEA 1.0, it's here now with vastly better performance than ever possible before thanks to the new Brian Richardson and Alex Scarborough powered graphic layer (GFX2). You can see the early fruits of Alex's efforts porting Rokkitball and Legions to the Mac for InstantAction below.
Rokkitball and Fallen Empire: Legions running in Safari on OSX
Did we mention that TGEA 1.8 is a FREE update for all TGEA owners? You can grab the beta release by hitting your My Account page right now.
What About TGE?
We've kicked this idea around a lot here in the office and so have you in the forums and in the comments on my previous blog. Why aren't we working on TGE? There are a number of reasons that matter to us, but I really want to approach this from your perspective. I want to take a hard look at the reasons people have, in the past, chosen TGE over TGEA.
Reason #1: TGE has better documentation. While this was true when TGEA 1.0 originally launched back in February 2007, it's certainly not anymore. TGEA documentation has gotten the Mich Perry treatment. It's now probably the most well-documented engine out there with mountains of resouces and a well organized set of reference and learning materials. See the proof for yourselves.
Mich's docs blogs:
* What do you think about Documentation?
* MAJOR Documentation Announcement 1
* New Documentation System
* Documentation Announcements
* September Documentation Wrap Up
* October Documentation Wrap Up
Reason #2: TGE has better resources. More resources? Yes. Better resources? Not anymore. TGEA is where all the latest, coolest stuff is happening, and some Torque developers are defintiely taking it by the horns and doing some really cool stuff. There are also a bunch of great add-ons for TGEA and many many more in the works. Case in point: Konrad Kiss. His Cliff Construction Kit makes gorgeous, detailed environments much easier to do. There's also Lorne McIntosh's SSAO (screen space ambient occlusion), and Apparatus' Beautiful Doors.
Reason #3: TGE has better stability. This is also no longer true. While TGEA pre-1.7 didn't match TGE's stability, the 1.7 and 1.7.1 release did. It may take a while for TGEA to match TGE's stability on the Mac, but it will get there. On the PC, it's no longer an issue.
Reason #4: TGE can run on OSX with OpenGL. Now so can TGEA, only it runs the same projects faster.
So with TGEA we now have...
The first thing I want to say is this: I'm thrilled we got here. With TGEA 1.8, we're out of reasons to look back and we'll be looking to the future from here with continued improvements to TGEA. It was not without great effort. TGEA is now is a much better product for game developers than TGE. If you're part of the Torque community, TGEA is where all the new development will be happening. TGEA is where the majority of new resources and 3rd party products will be born. And the best part of this for TGE owners is, we've taken great care to make sure that TGE projects are very portable to TGEA.
I'm encouraging those that haven't made the move to consider it. Having all hands on the same codebase benefits our development internally, but it also has huge benefits you guys. It means you'll have more compatible resources, and you'll have better, faster, more accurate answers to your technical questions because everyone's looking the same code.
There are real, tangible advantages for your project as well. In addition to all the hallmark strengths of Torque like world class networking and real-time world editing, with TGEA you have...
To us, it's a clear choice. You'll notice that we've taken this new embrace of Torque's future to heart with some recent changes to the website too. If you're a new user looking for an engine and want to make a 3D game, you'll end up on the TGEA landing page in just one click.
Getting to TGE is a tad tougher, but of course it's still there.
At some point, TGE will likely either go away, or be licensed in a different way. We could do something like the id does with the older Quake engines offering both GPL and closed source. We could simply leave it on the site as a less expensive option. To be honest, we haven't decided and we won't be doing anything about it right away.
This is a decision that I really would like some community feedback on. I know many of you have been working with TGE for years and really love it. We don't want to do anything that discourages it's continued use, but for new and advanced users alike, TGEA is now a better product, so we want to put it out front where we can focus on making it even better.
If TGE is going away soon, doesn't the name "TGEA" seem a little dumb?
Yes =) We are some gigantic dunces at this whole "naming" and "marketing" thing, but I see no reason to live with our mistakes or repeat them in the future. At some point, we'll look to simplify our products down to basics. It could look something like:
TGEA --> Torque 3D
and
TGB --> Torque 2D (duh...didn't we do that once already?)
So, none of that is happening *right* now, but likely happen in the future.
Okay Cool. So What's Next?
First off, to quickly review the stuff I've covered so far...
* TGEA 1.8 is in beta and adds an OpenGL graphics implementation and runs on OSX.
* At some point TGEA will replace TGE entirely and may be renamed to something more...concise.
Alright, alright! What's next? Good question...
The next version of Torque for 3D games
If you're still looking for another reason to make the leap to TGEA, pay attention. Remember all that stuff mentioned in my last blog under R&D? Well, back in March, there were dozens of things I wasn't ready to mention and quite a few that we'll be able to confirm as part of our next Torque release. The GG Studios team and many 3rd party developers we work with are already hands on with some of the coolest new R&D tech around. While the game studio is proving this new tech out with games you'll see on InstantAction and consoles over the next year, we're merging it with TGEA to be included in our next release.
Finally, Some "Thank Yous"
Maintaining and improving Torque is an incredible amount of work, so I want to recognize some of the people who've been HUGELY helpful in this last round of development, and generally moving the Torque experience in a positive direction, either by generously providing community resources, contributing directly to development, or providing really nice add-ons that help make Torque shine.
1. The entire Sickhead Games crew (Tom Spilman, Russell Fincher, Ross Pawley, and James Ford). These guys are to thank for a ton of what goes on behind the scenes in Torque development and even more of what you're about to see in the future. Their products, Torsion especially, make Torque much easier and much more fun to work with. They are a truly independent studio and they're bound for success.
2. John Kabus. John's continued support for the entire Torque product lineup has been a huge value add. He's been working on a lot of cool stuff that you guys will be psyched to see in the future too, so John definitely deserves a big thanks.
3. John Kanalakis. Remember when I mentioned that you'd be seeing some really new and impressive Torque X stuff? You have John to thank. John spearheaded our last round of development on Torque X both by updating it to XNA Game Studio 3.0 and he added his own suite of 3D editing tools. Now you can use WYSIWG tools to design your scene, assign components, and even write new ones right inside the editor. It's hot stuff and it's not been easy, so thank you, John. You're a superhero.
4. Melv May and Phillip O'Shea. Melv and Phillip are currently hard at work on some super-top-secret 2D engine stuff. When the next version of Torque's 2D engine tech ships, you'll have them to thank for most of its coolness.
5. Jeff Faust. Jeff never stops improving his fabulous AFX technology. He recently updated it to include TGEA support and more awesome effects. Word has it he's planning a big release in the next few months that will impress us all. I have no doubts about that. Keep it up, Jeff!
6. Rene Damm. Rene's another guy who's been absolutely killer behind the scenes helping with TGEA. He's tackled Atlas Terrain issues that frighten the best of us and his current plans include some really cool ways to leverage that core tech. We're all really looking forward to seeing what will happen when the final stuff emerges.
7. Laurentiu Danila a.k.a. "Apparatus". Does this guy ever sleep? Doors, bridges, props, textures, environments...KABOOM!. Talk about making Torque shine! Great job, Apparatus. Can't wait to see what you do next.
AND THAT'S A WRAP!
If you made it this far in the longest blog ever, congrats! I hope it was worth reading. Thanks!
...................................................................................................
Another Pre-emptive Q&A (with myself)
Q. What? No more TGE?
A. TGE is not gone yet and it's not going to disappear tomorrow, next week, or even next month. Next year? Possibly. There are no longer any technical reasons to choose TGE over TGEA, so we're going to focus our development efforts there. If you're concerned about the price, I wouldn't worry. We're going to find a way to make Torque technology as accessible on a budget as it can be. TGE resources and documentation aren't going to disappear either. They'll always be available, they may just become less relevant.
Q. Which of these releases will GG charge for?
A. TGEA 1.8 will be a free update. The next version of our 3D tech after that will be a paid update. The next version of our 2D tech will probably be a paid update. It's been almost 2 years since we charged for any version of TGEA and almost 4 years since we charge for any version of TGB. That's a pretty generous track record. At some point, we're going to have to feed the developers but as always, if we do charge for an update, you'll get more *way* more than your money's worth.
Q. When will we see OpenGL support in TGEA?
A. In TGEA 1.8! It's in open beta now! Pull it down. Put the hammer to it. Let us know what needs fixing.
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#42
There are a lot of corp's that haven't moved over to it yet and Microsoft is trying to force them to by ending licencing for XP seats over the next year.
I'm not saying I have a problem with Vista, but trying to point out that there is still a very large amount of XP systems out there (a large percentage then there is of Vista). XP will be around for a while to come and is still supported by Microsoft (well for the time being that is).
Yes Vista will be a major OS for PC's, but atm it's not as Microsoft may wish it was.
We as developers and game designers have to look at all the possible markets for our games/products, be it for PC, Mac, IPod, PS3, Xbox/360 or any other OS that is out there or to come. Remember you need to look at every possibility.
11/19/2008 (12:30 am)
Matt true Vista should be cheer'd, but sad news is it isn't. And when you hear that GMC and Intel haven't moved to it yet you have to wonder, is it another Windows ME in the making?There are a lot of corp's that haven't moved over to it yet and Microsoft is trying to force them to by ending licencing for XP seats over the next year.
I'm not saying I have a problem with Vista, but trying to point out that there is still a very large amount of XP systems out there (a large percentage then there is of Vista). XP will be around for a while to come and is still supported by Microsoft (well for the time being that is).
Yes Vista will be a major OS for PC's, but atm it's not as Microsoft may wish it was.
We as developers and game designers have to look at all the possible markets for our games/products, be it for PC, Mac, IPod, PS3, Xbox/360 or any other OS that is out there or to come. Remember you need to look at every possibility.
#43
I completely understand you have to optimize your resources and the development of TGEA has been awesome. TGEA is way ahead from what it was since version 1.0 and I know GG has put a great effort into it.
Unfortunately there are things which prevent TGEA from becoming the main GG solution like adequate low end PC support. Im not saying this things just to piss you off. Its just that I feel that if GG can provide solutions for those cases then TGEA will become a suitable platform.
Meanwhile, IMHO you just cant go and tell everybody that TGEA is a complete solution and everybody should leave TGE behind because it is an obsolete platform because right now that is not completely true. TGEA still cant replace TGE in all aspects.
Im just trying to make a point that this new small factor platforms look like an awesome target for casual games and they are a wonderful target for TGE. If you dont want to take on that business thats ok, its your decision. Im sure there will be other developers that will gladly take on that market.
Im really waiting for TGEA to become the main engine and rest assured that I will upgrade to Torque3D when it comes out. I just would love if you could provide a single solution covering a wide range of platforms. That would be healthy for you and for any user. Meanwhile TGE is still a viable choice and you just cant tell everybody to abandon it.
Luck!
Guimo
11/19/2008 (2:34 am)
Hi Matt,I completely understand you have to optimize your resources and the development of TGEA has been awesome. TGEA is way ahead from what it was since version 1.0 and I know GG has put a great effort into it.
Unfortunately there are things which prevent TGEA from becoming the main GG solution like adequate low end PC support. Im not saying this things just to piss you off. Its just that I feel that if GG can provide solutions for those cases then TGEA will become a suitable platform.
Meanwhile, IMHO you just cant go and tell everybody that TGEA is a complete solution and everybody should leave TGE behind because it is an obsolete platform because right now that is not completely true. TGEA still cant replace TGE in all aspects.
Im just trying to make a point that this new small factor platforms look like an awesome target for casual games and they are a wonderful target for TGE. If you dont want to take on that business thats ok, its your decision. Im sure there will be other developers that will gladly take on that market.
Im really waiting for TGEA to become the main engine and rest assured that I will upgrade to Torque3D when it comes out. I just would love if you could provide a single solution covering a wide range of platforms. That would be healthy for you and for any user. Meanwhile TGE is still a viable choice and you just cant tell everybody to abandon it.
Luck!
Guimo
#44
* No dedicated Server on Unix out of the box.
I did read it's possible with some changes but out of the box would be much better ;)
11/19/2008 (2:37 am)
I would like to add my main reason for not go over to TGEA: * No dedicated Server on Unix out of the box.
I did read it's possible with some changes but out of the box would be much better ;)
#45
{offtopic}
(yeah, I know the file copy bug didn't hit everyone, but it did affect lots of folks, including me, and there is still no solution. I've even heard that the problem still exists in the early versions of Windows 7)
{/offtopic}
My next PC will likely be a Mac dual booting Linux, so thanks a ton for the OpenGL support on your flagship product, and for free to boot :-)
11/19/2008 (5:26 am)
Great work guys :-){offtopic}
Quote:Personal tastes and preferences aside, every game developer should be cheering Vista on!Pretty hard to cheer for an OS that copies files approx 20x slower than its predecessor on the same hardware :-( Microsoft has seriously lost its way. Luckily I was able to get a refund on it after squacking loud enough and was able to upgrade back to XP. I have nothing good to say about the XP->Vista downgrade, and will probably never be buying another copy of windows.
(yeah, I know the file copy bug didn't hit everyone, but it did affect lots of folks, including me, and there is still no solution. I've even heard that the problem still exists in the early versions of Windows 7)
{/offtopic}
My next PC will likely be a Mac dual booting Linux, so thanks a ton for the OpenGL support on your flagship product, and for free to boot :-)
#46
Good to know. So you will implement...
- ShowToolPro and Constructor with Shader Preview?
- Cast & Receive Shadows on all object types?
- a mechanism to protect models, textures and sound?
Then and only then... it would be really a "Vastly Improved Art Pipeline" !!!
11/19/2008 (5:36 am)
Quote:
The new Torque(coming soon):
Vastly Improved Art Pipeline
...
...
...
Good to know. So you will implement...
- ShowToolPro and Constructor with Shader Preview?
- Cast & Receive Shadows on all object types?
- a mechanism to protect models, textures and sound?
Then and only then... it would be really a "Vastly Improved Art Pipeline" !!!
#47
Oh, and the announcement of some loving going to ediotrs & tools make me very happy! :D
Something I would like to see taking some care is... more GG shaders! Especially now that a lot of shaders created by the community will suffer for not having a OpenGL counterpart... Easy way to put in shaders directly coming from RenderMonkey or FXComposer will be nice also ! :)
I've yet started to collect a budget for TORQUE 3D and related things will come out of it :D
11/19/2008 (5:47 am)
Excited by the news and appreciating the new direction... Having all the community around TGEA will benefit it a lot :-)Oh, and the announcement of some loving going to ediotrs & tools make me very happy! :D
Something I would like to see taking some care is... more GG shaders! Especially now that a lot of shaders created by the community will suffer for not having a OpenGL counterpart... Easy way to put in shaders directly coming from RenderMonkey or FXComposer will be nice also ! :)
I've yet started to collect a budget for TORQUE 3D and related things will come out of it :D
#48
I'd like to join in the conversation to address some of the suggestions, such as Thomas's art pipeline reply, TGEA becoming the flagship product, and so on.
Unfortunately, I'm locked down writing docs without TDN. My best free time will actually be tomorrow during IRC Hour, where we will have Matt, Brett, our new exporter dev, Alex Scarborough...and so on =)
11/19/2008 (7:35 am)
Bubbling....over....with answers....I'd like to join in the conversation to address some of the suggestions, such as Thomas's art pipeline reply, TGEA becoming the flagship product, and so on.
Unfortunately, I'm locked down writing docs without TDN. My best free time will actually be tomorrow during IRC Hour, where we will have Matt, Brett, our new exporter dev, Alex Scarborough...and so on =)
#49
I worked on 7 TGE games, and all of them were borderline unplayable on non-ATI and non-NVIDIA integrated chipsets. They were not lookers by any means either.
Our first game that was truly playable on integrated cards was based on TGEA 1.3. It runs fine on PCs that have issues playing The Sims 2, and that was a huge plus for us. Simply put, integrated cards like Intel's, VIA's and others have terrible OpenGL performance.
The same game (same models, same textures, without normal maps or fancy effects), running on both engines will be faster on TGEA most of the time.
11/19/2008 (8:28 am)
I don't get what kind of PCs and games you guys are seeing better TGE performance than TGEA. I worked on 7 TGE games, and all of them were borderline unplayable on non-ATI and non-NVIDIA integrated chipsets. They were not lookers by any means either.
Our first game that was truly playable on integrated cards was based on TGEA 1.3. It runs fine on PCs that have issues playing The Sims 2, and that was a huge plus for us. Simply put, integrated cards like Intel's, VIA's and others have terrible OpenGL performance.
The same game (same models, same textures, without normal maps or fancy effects), running on both engines will be faster on TGEA most of the time.
#50
11/19/2008 (8:48 am)
Great news indeed. However please explain a little bit more in detail what is coming for TX? And what is the timeframe. Right now this is what I am most interested in, and so far, since TX out of the box is not useable for 3D on the XBOX, i really hope these issues have been fixed. Please can you say anything about TX?
#51
TX is a topic I've tried bringing up in IRC Hour before, but there just never seems to be anyone available to talk. If we can get a group of TX users together, I might be able to get a real time chat going with those involved with its development. We'll have to discuss it further though.
11/19/2008 (8:52 am)
@Andy S. - I'm writing documentation for TorqueX write now, based on new builds being worked on. Our TX devs are working overtime (about to go mad, in fact) to release something new.TX is a topic I've tried bringing up in IRC Hour before, but there just never seems to be anyone available to talk. If we can get a group of TX users together, I might be able to get a real time chat going with those involved with its development. We'll have to discuss it further though.
#52
11/19/2008 (9:46 am)
What is the pricing for the upgrade path from the latest TGE to TGEA? 
#54
What is written on the product page is an obsolete description written for TGEA 1.0.3 when it had less features, less stability, less examples, and less documentation than TGE. It should be changed shortly. Thanks for catching it!
11/19/2008 (10:37 am)
@Chip: As outlined in Brett's blog, there is no reason why new users shouldn't start out with TGEA. Like you mentioned in your own experience, there's not much of a learning curve with TGEA now, thanks to the amount of doc work that has gone into the engine. We're seeing that more and more with new users; they simply aren't struggling with TGEA the way they used to. Hence, we recommend that new users start with the code base that is only continue to get stronger in the coming months.What is written on the product page is an obsolete description written for TGEA 1.0.3 when it had less features, less stability, less examples, and less documentation than TGE. It should be changed shortly. Thanks for catching it!
#55
11/19/2008 (10:43 am)
I hope the next time. I can talk about this development
#56
P.S. I put my vote in for a Quake like licensing for TGE. I think that is the one way to make TGE Live for nearly ever.
11/19/2008 (10:50 am)
Although I'm not active in game development anymore. I'll add my list to the name of people who were excited and waiting for this release. P.S. I put my vote in for a Quake like licensing for TGE. I think that is the one way to make TGE Live for nearly ever.
#57
Would be nice at least 1 time on 3 having it like at 1 or 2 pm
;-)
11/19/2008 (12:52 pm)
I'd like to be on the IRC chat tomorrow but this would be not likely... How about having it sometimes some hours earlier so that even european people can attend it? Thursday at 5pm PST here will be Friday at 2am :-(Would be nice at least 1 time on 3 having it like at 1 or 2 pm
;-)
#58
11/19/2008 (2:18 pm)
So TGB and even TGE, will end up having gotten more updates for free, than TGEA will have.. interesting 
#59
Second, things worth having are things worth paying for. This goes for just about everything in life, wouldn't you say?
11/19/2008 (2:29 pm)
@Jeremiah - first of all, TGEA has had nothing but free updates up to and including 1.8 so I think you may have your facts mixed up there.Second, things worth having are things worth paying for. This goes for just about everything in life, wouldn't you say?
#60
Now with the 1.8 release all seems to be done... also the OpenGL support, so I think all of us could be happy with what we've got...
I think GG now has delivered us a good and usefull product with wich we can work well.
Certainly I think a bit of care about some lighting issues that TGEA still suffers (especially on interiors) would be nice for those who will decide to stick with 1.8...
The new big enhanchements TGEA seems (as per Brett words) promising surely will worth some money, so I don't mind if the next releases will be not free, I like to pay some money to get those great enhanchements TGEA seems promising...
In the end I think like us noone at GG could "live of solely air" ... No cash at all, no updates at all, it's pretty obvious! ;-D
11/19/2008 (3:04 pm)
When TGEA cames out it wasn't absolutely really complete, it was lacking a lot of features...Now with the 1.8 release all seems to be done... also the OpenGL support, so I think all of us could be happy with what we've got...
I think GG now has delivered us a good and usefull product with wich we can work well.
Certainly I think a bit of care about some lighting issues that TGEA still suffers (especially on interiors) would be nice for those who will decide to stick with 1.8...
The new big enhanchements TGEA seems (as per Brett words) promising surely will worth some money, so I don't mind if the next releases will be not free, I like to pay some money to get those great enhanchements TGEA seems promising...
In the end I think like us noone at GG could "live of solely air" ... No cash at all, no updates at all, it's pretty obvious! ;-D
Associate Matt Fairfax
PopCap
In a perfect world we could throw dozens of developers at every one of our products at all the same time and have them be everything to everyone.
Unfortunately, our resources are limited and we have to smartly focus our efforts. We believe that there are far better wins for us and for our community in the long run if we focus on Torque 3D.