My views on GarageGames,XNA, and C#
by Ben Ewing · 08/31/2006 (7:21 pm) · 39 comments
I wrote this at school today out of boredom, and get my thoughts down on paper.
(And this is my first .plan, I hope it isn't taken to negatively)
Well, lots of awesome things are being done by the guys at the Garage, but I've been noticing a trend with there newer products (TSE/TorqueX). They've been straying farther and farther away from Cross-Platform support, which was one of the deciding factors for me when I bought TGE (As well as TGB).
TSE is going to be released without OpenGL/Cross Platform support, though it is promised, and TorqueX using XNA, it seems like GG's is jumping on the MicroSoft bandwagon, then again, this is obviously a very large opportunity for Indies.
But, it also looks as if Indies aren't GG's main target anymore. TGE Indie with source is still $100, but TGB with source is $250, TGB is a great engine, and I love messing around with it, but $250 seems a bit steep for a 2D. This concerns me, obviously the prices are going to go up on new products.
TSE, which should be released soon, will most likely be priced very high seeing that it will be a full fledged 3D engine, and possibly to step for Indies. TorqueX might be even more expensive, seeing that it seems to be GG's killer app, encompassing TSE and TGB.
To me this all seems to me like GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over, group by group. Despite this, I love messing around in TGB and TGE, I haven't done anything intended for commercial release, but I have done a bunch of cool stuff with TGB (Four way pong, Online Rock Paper Scissors [ Which doesn't work too well...] , and some other stuff) and TGE ( Me and Matt Vitelli are working on a little fantasy RPG right now).
Which brings me to a former personal conflict. I'm still fairly new to C++, I can do some basic stuff with it, and I have done a few little OpenGL apps in it, but since C# started to become more and more popular I had started to ask myself if I should stop learning C++ and start concentrating on C#. So I went on the #GID channel and asked what everyone's views on C++ Vs. C# were, and I got some great advice from someone (I think it was Fosters :/, but I cant ay for sure). He said that a programmer shouldn't worry about petty things such as what language or IDE he/she is using, but just get the job done. Which settled my conflict.
This is all for now, please don't flame on this, these are just my personal views, based on what I know.
(And this is my first .plan, I hope it isn't taken to negatively)
Well, lots of awesome things are being done by the guys at the Garage, but I've been noticing a trend with there newer products (TSE/TorqueX). They've been straying farther and farther away from Cross-Platform support, which was one of the deciding factors for me when I bought TGE (As well as TGB).
TSE is going to be released without OpenGL/Cross Platform support, though it is promised, and TorqueX using XNA, it seems like GG's is jumping on the MicroSoft bandwagon, then again, this is obviously a very large opportunity for Indies.
But, it also looks as if Indies aren't GG's main target anymore. TGE Indie with source is still $100, but TGB with source is $250, TGB is a great engine, and I love messing around with it, but $250 seems a bit steep for a 2D. This concerns me, obviously the prices are going to go up on new products.
TSE, which should be released soon, will most likely be priced very high seeing that it will be a full fledged 3D engine, and possibly to step for Indies. TorqueX might be even more expensive, seeing that it seems to be GG's killer app, encompassing TSE and TGB.
To me this all seems to me like GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over, group by group. Despite this, I love messing around in TGB and TGE, I haven't done anything intended for commercial release, but I have done a bunch of cool stuff with TGB (Four way pong, Online Rock Paper Scissors [ Which doesn't work too well...] , and some other stuff) and TGE ( Me and Matt Vitelli are working on a little fantasy RPG right now).
Which brings me to a former personal conflict. I'm still fairly new to C++, I can do some basic stuff with it, and I have done a few little OpenGL apps in it, but since C# started to become more and more popular I had started to ask myself if I should stop learning C++ and start concentrating on C#. So I went on the #GID channel and asked what everyone's views on C++ Vs. C# were, and I got some great advice from someone (I think it was Fosters :/, but I cant ay for sure). He said that a programmer shouldn't worry about petty things such as what language or IDE he/she is using, but just get the job done. Which settled my conflict.
This is all for now, please don't flame on this, these are just my personal views, based on what I know.
#22
1. I guess Ive been expecting way too much of GarageGames, and forgotten that they too are people.
2. I am a student, and so I am a tad bit short on money, so I guess I have once again forgotten the
finacial needs of GarageGames
3.In regards to "GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over"
I guess I was ignoring the above two statements, and that you guys are probably under much stress
from the community to finish TSE, Constructor, and now TorqueX
4.I guess I also forgot, that TGB games can be ported to TorqeX, so they could be released on
Mac,Linux, etc....
Edit: In other words, Ive been a bit selfish....
-Ben
09/01/2006 (7:07 am)
Thanks for the replies, I guess there are lots of things I havent taken into consideration:1. I guess Ive been expecting way too much of GarageGames, and forgotten that they too are people.
2. I am a student, and so I am a tad bit short on money, so I guess I have once again forgotten the
finacial needs of GarageGames
3.In regards to "GarageGames is slowly screwing a group of its customers over"
I guess I was ignoring the above two statements, and that you guys are probably under much stress
from the community to finish TSE, Constructor, and now TorqueX
4.I guess I also forgot, that TGB games can be ported to TorqeX, so they could be released on
Mac,Linux, etc....
Edit: In other words, Ive been a bit selfish....
-Ben
#23
09/01/2006 (8:03 am)
For the record, Microsoft is actually willing to license out XNA to other consoles, including Sony. I imagine if Apple was interested they could get in on it too. The odds of the other console manufacturers jumping on board are next to nil, or apple for that matter. (I think Linux is out of the question based on the fact theres not just 1 linux company to license it)
#24
09/01/2006 (8:51 am)
Do people still USE macs? *hides in a corner and pulls up the flame-retardant blanket*
#25
Their only possible salvation is if some dictator took over the world and expunged the M$ regime.
09/01/2006 (9:34 am)
They're a dead breed. They're still walking, but most definitely dead. <-- In regards to macsTheir only possible salvation is if some dictator took over the world and expunged the M$ regime.
#27
I have nothing against Mac at all, I just like poking fun at Macaholics. It truely is sad that they can't even sell as much as one of the worst PC manufacturers on the planet (Gateway).
09/01/2006 (9:57 am)
Quote:Like IDC, Gartner has the top four players in the U.S. PC market as Dell (32 percent), HP (18.9 percent), Gateway (6.2 percent) and Apple (4.6 percent).
I have nothing against Mac at all, I just like poking fun at Macaholics. It truely is sad that they can't even sell as much as one of the worst PC manufacturers on the planet (Gateway).
#28
I do like the new Mac commercials making fun of windows, although they were a little late coming as they would have been more accurate back in the Win95 days.
09/01/2006 (10:13 am)
I had a chance to sit down and play with a new Mac for the first time the other day. While I'm not a big fan of any OS; they all have their pros and cons, I didn't see what the big deal about them was. This of course comes from someone who makes a living using them, so to me a computer is analogous to a shovel; just a tool to get the job done.I do like the new Mac commercials making fun of windows, although they were a little late coming as they would have been more accurate back in the Win95 days.
#29
GG has always been great. Questions I have had were always answered quickly either by an employee or an associate. They are realeasing more stuff now than ever before and it is breath taking! Linux and Mac are niche and TGE is still viable.
I will be buying Torque X and shall make sweet love to ... err... I mean continue learning about game design and programming. I may even have to buy an Xbox if I ever get anything worthy of release.
09/01/2006 (10:26 am)
Personally Ben I think your perspective is off. I'm a hobbyist myself (but in the PC side). Working full time, 2 kids, wife, etc does not give me much time to dedicate so I tend to mostly mess with small things. Especially after last years failed launch.GG has always been great. Questions I have had were always answered quickly either by an employee or an associate. They are realeasing more stuff now than ever before and it is breath taking! Linux and Mac are niche and TGE is still viable.
I will be buying Torque X and shall make sweet love to ... err... I mean continue learning about game design and programming. I may even have to buy an Xbox if I ever get anything worthy of release.
#30
It is unfortunate that they aren't as cheap as Gateway, because I am sure most Gateway users would have an easier time with a mac, but what can you do?
The mac platform is still a fantastic opportunity for Indie developers - but you really shouldn't be worrying about TSE support. Why? Look at Apple's recent consumer lineup - all equipped with shared-memory onboard intel graphics "accelerators". You will not be able to run most shader games on these cards. If you want to target the mac market, target the majority of the users - the ones with consumer machines. This means using TGE or TGB, until Apple decides to give their customers the ability to run shader based games.
We will of course still be bringing GL support to TSE, but even then, it might be wiser not to use it for most Mac games if you are really looking to get a lot of sales on the platform.
09/01/2006 (10:45 am)
Saying that Apple is dead because of lack of market share shows a decided lack of business insight. Apple is very profitable. Apple has a higher profit margin per sale than Gateway - and their prices scare off a lot of customers. However, they need their prices to be high to maintain their elite image. If everyone could afford a mac, it wouldn't be as cool to have one. It is as much a status symbol as a computer. It is unfortunate that they aren't as cheap as Gateway, because I am sure most Gateway users would have an easier time with a mac, but what can you do?
The mac platform is still a fantastic opportunity for Indie developers - but you really shouldn't be worrying about TSE support. Why? Look at Apple's recent consumer lineup - all equipped with shared-memory onboard intel graphics "accelerators". You will not be able to run most shader games on these cards. If you want to target the mac market, target the majority of the users - the ones with consumer machines. This means using TGE or TGB, until Apple decides to give their customers the ability to run shader based games.
We will of course still be bringing GL support to TSE, but even then, it might be wiser not to use it for most Mac games if you are really looking to get a lot of sales on the platform.
#31
I'd strongly disagree here Alex. People don't buy Mac because "it's a mac", they buy it because they TRUELY think mac's are superior. I admit, at one time, Mac was superior, but not in today's world. This is starting to turn into a PC vs Mac thread.. *gasp*
09/01/2006 (11:08 am)
Quote: Apple has a higher profit margin per sale than Gateway - and their prices scare off a lot of customers. However, they need their prices to be high to maintain their elite image. If everyone could afford a mac, it wouldn't be as cool to have one. It is as much a status symbol as a computer.
I'd strongly disagree here Alex. People don't buy Mac because "it's a mac", they buy it because they TRUELY think mac's are superior. I admit, at one time, Mac was superior, but not in today's world. This is starting to turn into a PC vs Mac thread.. *gasp*
#32
My opinion of Apple has been on a downward spiral for the last few years. If they would have switched to intel at the time OSX was launch and avoided many of the performance and development issues of the platform, I could MAYBE believe that someone has their head out of their ass and was a "visionary".
09/01/2006 (11:27 am)
Apple charges $150+ for OS "upgrades" which means users are running a variety of versions and are slow to adopt... Between 10.3.9 incompatibilities with 10.4 (really looking forward to whatever 10.5 breaks), G4/G5/Intel processor incompatibilities, and having to buy different machines with different architectures to test the platform, OSX is NOT a fun platform to support. It pretty much blows. My opinion of Apple has been on a downward spiral for the last few years. If they would have switched to intel at the time OSX was launch and avoided many of the performance and development issues of the platform, I could MAYBE believe that someone has their head out of their ass and was a "visionary".
#33
TGE is a product that is priced to be very hobbyist-friendly, though as a product it needs a bit more work to be as friendly as it should be to that market. And GG has been making strides to improve it that way.
Then you've got the professional (or becoming-professional) indie. I'm sure many (but not all) of the hobbyist crowd aspire to this. Once you get to this point, you have to start thinking of costs and profit. And you have to start putting a dollar value on your time. A professional tool of this quality for $250 has to be compared to the amount of profit you are going to make on your product, as well as compared to how much time it would take you to do it yourself (possibly using some free libraries to start with, such as SDL). Even if you are just starting out, $250 is probably not too bad. You will likely more than make that up with a single (halfway decent) game.
09/01/2006 (12:08 pm)
What's your definition of indie? There's the hobbyist indie (which probably represents 90% of the community here) that is focused on learning to create games and "playing" with making their own games. It's a great hobby, and $100 for a one-time fee for that market is pretty cheap (compare that to the cost of, say, a video card). Now, if you are talking the hobbyist market, then yeah... going up from $100 is kinda painful, but still not too extreme as a one-time cost. However, I think TGB is aimed directly at the hobbyist market with the non-sourcecode version. If you are just starting, and don't know what you are going to do, it's the right product.TGE is a product that is priced to be very hobbyist-friendly, though as a product it needs a bit more work to be as friendly as it should be to that market. And GG has been making strides to improve it that way.
Then you've got the professional (or becoming-professional) indie. I'm sure many (but not all) of the hobbyist crowd aspire to this. Once you get to this point, you have to start thinking of costs and profit. And you have to start putting a dollar value on your time. A professional tool of this quality for $250 has to be compared to the amount of profit you are going to make on your product, as well as compared to how much time it would take you to do it yourself (possibly using some free libraries to start with, such as SDL). Even if you are just starting out, $250 is probably not too bad. You will likely more than make that up with a single (halfway decent) game.
#34
it was just a compliment to linux users. all of them that i knew 6 years ago were computer scientists. that's cool that it's more accessible to non-coders. i guess all the people i've known who make games and use linux are proud that they are hard core coders who do it all themselves... that's really the group I was talking to about making a linux game engine. and I hope that is what happens too. there's a niche. might as well take advantage of it. i know i am jumping on c# xna, which in the scheme of game development is much smaller than linux.
09/01/2006 (12:43 pm)
@Keith Framptonit was just a compliment to linux users. all of them that i knew 6 years ago were computer scientists. that's cool that it's more accessible to non-coders. i guess all the people i've known who make games and use linux are proud that they are hard core coders who do it all themselves... that's really the group I was talking to about making a linux game engine. and I hope that is what happens too. there's a niche. might as well take advantage of it. i know i am jumping on c# xna, which in the scheme of game development is much smaller than linux.
#35
09/01/2006 (1:08 pm)
Only hippies use apple :)
#37
death throes can look like a comeback
Back onto real topic now:
It's a hell of a lot cheaper than doing it yourself to get to the basic functionality of TGE or TSE. From my eyes it took $250 to get to TSE (100 for TGE 150 for TSE), let's be unrealistic and say my time was worth $8 an hour, in 32 hours would I be able to reproduce TSE? Not a chance. If my time was of value equal to my hourly pay at work, then I'd have to reproduce TSE in less than a day to match the expense. And at what my time costs for a client I'd have to create TSE before my lunch break.
It's worth every penny and every headache.
As far as the screwing:
Where's the mead?
09/01/2006 (2:31 pm)
@David "NfoCipher" Bunt:death throes can look like a comeback
Back onto real topic now:
It's a hell of a lot cheaper than doing it yourself to get to the basic functionality of TGE or TSE. From my eyes it took $250 to get to TSE (100 for TGE 150 for TSE), let's be unrealistic and say my time was worth $8 an hour, in 32 hours would I be able to reproduce TSE? Not a chance. If my time was of value equal to my hourly pay at work, then I'd have to reproduce TSE in less than a day to match the expense. And at what my time costs for a client I'd have to create TSE before my lunch break.
It's worth every penny and every headache.
As far as the screwing:
Where's the mead?
#38
09/01/2006 (3:26 pm)
@Josh Ritter: yeah, supporting 3+ major versions of an OS is a pain. But that's what I'm here for. If you have a specific problem, drop me a line, and I'll probably have a solution for you.
#39
And don't forget the recently released Intel Mac Compatible version of ThinkTanks
09/01/2006 (8:57 pm)
^ The man that proves with actions that the mac has not been abandoned at GG. 
Torque Owner Keith Frampton
@Anton:
That's the most rediculous thing I've heard in some time now. Go see if the average user running Linspire knows the first thing about coding. Linux isn't just for hard-core geeks anymore.