Developing a new engine identical to TGE
by Dennis Lamers · in General Discussion · 03/02/2018 (9:00 am) · 5 replies
Hello all,
I have been in this community of GarageGames since 2008. The first time I came in contact with a TGE game was Blockland. For years I have enjoyed the editor tools and the way that ALL files were stored into the game folders. After Torque Game Engine disappeared from the website along with support, I have been trying out Torque 3D multiple times now.
Torque 3D has been out now for almost six years. The editor tools in this engine and placing objects have always confused me. Recently I have seen some people in a discord server that were developing a game in Torque 3D moving back (illegally) to Torque Game Engine 1.5.2.
When I asked some of them why, they say it is because the easier controls that Torque Game Engine had to offer. The world/terrain editor as well the GUI editor was indeed much easier to create new stuff. Torque Game Engine pretty felt like you had your own 'pocket' game on your computer, everything clean placed in folders like (fps/server - fps/client - fps/data).
After looking back at those ten years, I think that Torque 3D made people left. If you google a bit about Torque Game Engine it was always prized with such positive comments and awards, one for being the best multiplayer networking system. To be honest, is it not better to look further and start developing an engine that is similar to Torque Game Engine? It would be sad to see this community and website disappear somewhere in the future. (source: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/garagegames-launches-new-version-of-the-torque-game-engine - 2005)
I think the motivation to create a new engine with better controls, editors and graphics is in the hands of people with a high knowledge of C++/C# and willing to do it if it will be a sold product again. I don't really see why nobody is going to try it out. Engines on the internet that are being sold look much better then the free opensource engines, like Torque 3D. But they are very different and not so easy as Torque Game Engine.
I'd really believe that a new engine that is much identical to TGE but much better can make this community big again.
I have been in this community of GarageGames since 2008. The first time I came in contact with a TGE game was Blockland. For years I have enjoyed the editor tools and the way that ALL files were stored into the game folders. After Torque Game Engine disappeared from the website along with support, I have been trying out Torque 3D multiple times now.
Torque 3D has been out now for almost six years. The editor tools in this engine and placing objects have always confused me. Recently I have seen some people in a discord server that were developing a game in Torque 3D moving back (illegally) to Torque Game Engine 1.5.2.
When I asked some of them why, they say it is because the easier controls that Torque Game Engine had to offer. The world/terrain editor as well the GUI editor was indeed much easier to create new stuff. Torque Game Engine pretty felt like you had your own 'pocket' game on your computer, everything clean placed in folders like (fps/server - fps/client - fps/data).
After looking back at those ten years, I think that Torque 3D made people left. If you google a bit about Torque Game Engine it was always prized with such positive comments and awards, one for being the best multiplayer networking system. To be honest, is it not better to look further and start developing an engine that is similar to Torque Game Engine? It would be sad to see this community and website disappear somewhere in the future. (source: https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/garagegames-launches-new-version-of-the-torque-game-engine - 2005)
I think the motivation to create a new engine with better controls, editors and graphics is in the hands of people with a high knowledge of C++/C# and willing to do it if it will be a sold product again. I don't really see why nobody is going to try it out. Engines on the internet that are being sold look much better then the free opensource engines, like Torque 3D. But they are very different and not so easy as Torque Game Engine.
I'd really believe that a new engine that is much identical to TGE but much better can make this community big again.
About the author
Creator of Peekarica and Blockland Classic Mod.
#2
03/02/2018 (4:48 pm)
Agreed with Jeff. If you are curious about the history and reasons for the tool changes in Torque, feel free to ask me. If current and future Torque is what you are after, Jeff is the guy to talk to at length. I also highly recommend you check out the new Torque forums in the future for more current news on the tech.
#3
Agreed but the tool set in T3D is indeed a mess, sorry to call it like that. For Torque Game Engine, you had Torque Constructor to make .dif models. I have been using that software for years to this present day.
Whenever I want to make an interior for T3D, the material editor is really weird and I just can't seem to get rid of it. Replacing the orange number texture by another texture is also confused, as it could never add or find my own textures.
The last try with T3D was in December last year. I first had to find some other files since there was missing stuff in the GitHub project of T3D(?).
Torque Game Engine gave you the feeling that it was a complete, stable and above all, an engine that had yearly great updates. It feels like the spirit of Torque has been lost in T3D.
I think it may not be possible to make a second T3D and edit it to a much easier editing system for the GUI and World Editor. It would be awesome if that second T3D engine could support Torque Constructor models again, I don't really see why TC is so bad as it is possible to make high quality models.
03/06/2018 (4:00 am)
@JeffAgreed but the tool set in T3D is indeed a mess, sorry to call it like that. For Torque Game Engine, you had Torque Constructor to make .dif models. I have been using that software for years to this present day.
Whenever I want to make an interior for T3D, the material editor is really weird and I just can't seem to get rid of it. Replacing the orange number texture by another texture is also confused, as it could never add or find my own textures.
The last try with T3D was in December last year. I first had to find some other files since there was missing stuff in the GitHub project of T3D(?).
Torque Game Engine gave you the feeling that it was a complete, stable and above all, an engine that had yearly great updates. It feels like the spirit of Torque has been lost in T3D.
I think it may not be possible to make a second T3D and edit it to a much easier editing system for the GUI and World Editor. It would be awesome if that second T3D engine could support Torque Constructor models again, I don't really see why TC is so bad as it is possible to make high quality models.
#4
Some good info here, so lets take this point by point.
"Agreed but the tool set in T3D is indeed a mess, sorry to call it like that. For Torque Game Engine, you had Torque Constructor to make .dif models. I have been using that software for years to this present day."
The problem is that dif as a format was really old and limited. I personally REALLY like the bsp/csg style editing of level geometry, so I feel you on that end, and I think they should've supported a new approach to it rather than flatly ditching dif with no replacement, but dif was OLD ;)
That said, I've been pushing at a new CSG-based tool for editing(at minimum, blocking out levels) as you can see here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjp-qRiooV0
"Whenever I want to make an interior for T3D, the material editor is really weird and I just can't seem to get rid of it. Replacing the orange number texture by another texture is also confused, as it could never add or find my own textures."
Yeah, the content flow for T3D(and if we're being honest, TGE) has been lacking. Which is why a gigantic part of T3D 4.0's design and push is ease of use and content management. To that end, we've fairly recently gotten an asset browser rolled in that we'll be polishing and expanding upon to make the content flow MUCH easier and more reliable to work with.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT0Xj0AW8dM
All the content of the project managed through one place, much easier to find, manage and use.
"The last try with T3D was in December last year. I first had to find some other files since there was missing stuff in the GitHub project of T3D(?)."
December 2017? or 2016? I don't recall having missing stuff, but I'll make special note to check against that in QA going forward.
I will say that we're working on the 3.0 of the Project Manager which will have better package and project management soas to cut back on the fussing required by a huge margin.
"Torque Game Engine gave you the feeling that it was a complete, stable and above all, an engine that had yearly great updates. It feels like the spirit of Torque has been lost in T3D."
I can see what you mean about TGE having a complete stable feel, though I'd directly challenge the idea that T3D hasn't gotten a lot of great work each year updates-wise ;)
"I think it may not be possible to make a second T3D and edit it to a much easier editing system for the GUI and World Editor. It would be awesome if that second T3D engine could support Torque Constructor models again, I don't really see why TC is so bad as it is possible to make high quality models."
Going back to this, as said, the dif format is old, and Constructor's code isn't maintained. As a tool, Constructor needed some more time in the oven and it has some pretty annoying interface/usability gremlins. I've talked to a few people that worked on Constructor about getting ahold of the source but no one can find a copy. Meaning that as a tool, Constructor can't move forward.
Which is why I started working on the above new version of a CSG interface. This ties back to what I said in which I feel it's more practical and better to pick out what we really liked about TGE(and you've given some good examples here already) and hammer on those for T3D builds going forward, rather than stepping backwards to maintain the old status quo which may not be the best bet.
If you've got other things that has proven to be an issue for you or the other guys you've talked to, by all means, lay 'em down here, or on the newer T3D forums: forums.torque3d.org where we're more active.
I'd also recommend you poke through my youtube channel, above as well as my workblog on the new forums here
I do at minimum monthly updates about work being done on the engine, and I honestly think you'll be quite surprised at what's been happening :)
Hope to hear more ideas from you! :D
03/07/2018 (6:59 am)
Hey Dennis, thanks for answering!Some good info here, so lets take this point by point.
"Agreed but the tool set in T3D is indeed a mess, sorry to call it like that. For Torque Game Engine, you had Torque Constructor to make .dif models. I have been using that software for years to this present day."
The problem is that dif as a format was really old and limited. I personally REALLY like the bsp/csg style editing of level geometry, so I feel you on that end, and I think they should've supported a new approach to it rather than flatly ditching dif with no replacement, but dif was OLD ;)
That said, I've been pushing at a new CSG-based tool for editing(at minimum, blocking out levels) as you can see here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yjp-qRiooV0
"Whenever I want to make an interior for T3D, the material editor is really weird and I just can't seem to get rid of it. Replacing the orange number texture by another texture is also confused, as it could never add or find my own textures."
Yeah, the content flow for T3D(and if we're being honest, TGE) has been lacking. Which is why a gigantic part of T3D 4.0's design and push is ease of use and content management. To that end, we've fairly recently gotten an asset browser rolled in that we'll be polishing and expanding upon to make the content flow MUCH easier and more reliable to work with.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aT0Xj0AW8dM
All the content of the project managed through one place, much easier to find, manage and use.
"The last try with T3D was in December last year. I first had to find some other files since there was missing stuff in the GitHub project of T3D(?)."
December 2017? or 2016? I don't recall having missing stuff, but I'll make special note to check against that in QA going forward.
I will say that we're working on the 3.0 of the Project Manager which will have better package and project management soas to cut back on the fussing required by a huge margin.
"Torque Game Engine gave you the feeling that it was a complete, stable and above all, an engine that had yearly great updates. It feels like the spirit of Torque has been lost in T3D."
I can see what you mean about TGE having a complete stable feel, though I'd directly challenge the idea that T3D hasn't gotten a lot of great work each year updates-wise ;)
"I think it may not be possible to make a second T3D and edit it to a much easier editing system for the GUI and World Editor. It would be awesome if that second T3D engine could support Torque Constructor models again, I don't really see why TC is so bad as it is possible to make high quality models."
Going back to this, as said, the dif format is old, and Constructor's code isn't maintained. As a tool, Constructor needed some more time in the oven and it has some pretty annoying interface/usability gremlins. I've talked to a few people that worked on Constructor about getting ahold of the source but no one can find a copy. Meaning that as a tool, Constructor can't move forward.
Which is why I started working on the above new version of a CSG interface. This ties back to what I said in which I feel it's more practical and better to pick out what we really liked about TGE(and you've given some good examples here already) and hammer on those for T3D builds going forward, rather than stepping backwards to maintain the old status quo which may not be the best bet.
If you've got other things that has proven to be an issue for you or the other guys you've talked to, by all means, lay 'em down here, or on the newer T3D forums: forums.torque3d.org where we're more active.
I'd also recommend you poke through my youtube channel, above as well as my workblog on the new forums here
I do at minimum monthly updates about work being done on the engine, and I honestly think you'll be quite surprised at what's been happening :)
Hope to hear more ideas from you! :D
#5
03/21/2018 (7:38 am)
Hey Jeff, thanks for your reply. I will follow the progress of T3D. :D 
Torque Owner Jeff Raab
[ghc]games
I'm legitimately very curious what makes you think that going back to the old way would ultimately be an improvement over just improving the lacking parts of T3D as current.
I've used Torque since the TGE days, through TSE, into T3D and am now running the show with it, and as such feel I've got a decent bit of experience with the engine and it's tools.
And being honest, any time i fire up a TGE build to test/check or compare something, I remember how much I hate the old tools now, haha.
That said, I've been driving a huge push to improve the tool/workflow with T3D for 4.0 and I think that any grievances that you or those other developer buddies you have could be much more readily solved by improving and fixing the weaknesses in T3D's toolset than doing an entirely new game engine.
So if you wouldn't mind going into it, I'd love to get an idea of what you guys are thinking when tackling the apparent issues in the editors :)